Who am I?

[Gilford]

Hi Steve,

Something that happened to me last weekend that i forgot to mention in my last reply: This preceded the feelings i was having of my heart filling up. I was sitting down at the computer and decided to watch a music video. I really like this song and the video and i hadn't watched it in a while. Near the end of the song, this feeling arose and i just started crying and i let go. Tears flooded down my face. The video & song was just so beautiful. I hadn't cried like that since i was a child. They weren't tears of sadness, just some kind of intense happiness.

The next few days, the feeling came back every now and again. Tuesday in work was a pretty stressful day but it wasn't as bad as it would have been if i had that kind of day a few weeks earlier. As soon as i left the office, the feelings came back as i walked home. But then on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday there were no "warm happy feelings". Work was very busy and my mind was busier than ever. Whatever i was getting closer to, was now drifting further away, i thought.

Then i noticed that this was the mind labeling these experiences as 'good'. And the self was 'feeling bad' that the feelings weren't happening as often anymore. Another story that the mind was making up was that it was needed more now because work was so busy and maybe right now wasn't the best time to 'wake up'. I can see this as the false self but it took a couple of days to realize this. Wednesday morning it seemed like i woke up (from sleep) and the mind was so persistently busy and it stayed like this right through to Friday. It's better now that i have some time to reflect. But my attention doesn't go there when i'm so busy in work all day.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Your experience with the video was wonderful to read! Seeing through the illusion of self usually produces a release but how it manifests depends on the structure of coping mechanisms uniquely built up by that person. That's why it all varies so much. So that may help to explain some of what's going on.

But then on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday there were no "warm happy feelings". Work was very busy and my mind was busier than ever. Whatever i was getting closer to, was now drifting further away, i thought.

It's easier to experience the flow of life sitting quietly at home, and more difficult in the stress of work. I'm very much at peace in my work now, but it took many months for that to develop after the gate.

It's important to see that you can't "grasp at" this feeling. It will always slip through your fingers. The recommended method to deal with negative feelings is the one I've given before: First, accept the feelings and thank them for wanting to protect you. Then focus on the body sensations. Notice and accept the story, and let it be. Are the sensations painful? Can you accept them? Is the story real or is it a story about what's real? Can the story be accepted as not real, yet as the way life manifests in its richness?

In short, accept everything and keep on looking.

Often the story talks about a self, and sometimes that will be believed. So, if there's any doubt, then actually look to see if it can be found.

Another story that the mind was making up was that it was needed more now because work was so busy and maybe right now wasn't the best time to 'wake up'. I can see this as the false self but it took a couple of days to realize this.

Indeed! Thoughts have a job to do. Thoughts are meant to be useful, beautiful, entertaining, and so on, but they were never meant to be believed. That's the mistake we make. It's as if the mind is a dog that's been put in charge of the whole house. It can't handle all that responsibility, and the result can only be fear and neurosis. So, relieve it of that responsibility and let thoughts do what they're good at.

Do we actually need thoughts to be a mediator between a self and a world, or have we got this all wrong?

Tell me how you go with those pointers.


Steve

[Gilford]

Notice and accept the story, and let it be. Are the sensations painful? Can you accept them? Is the story real or is it a story about what's real? Can the story be accepted as not real, yet as the way life manifests in its richness?

Hi Steve,

I know this sounds silly but i think i have this idea that going long periods of time where i am busy, paying a lot of attention to the self that i am somehow building the self back up again. And that a lot of the work i have been doing to see the illusion of self is being undone. But i know that when i focus, the truth is always there right in front of me.

Do we actually need thoughts to be a mediator between a self and a world, or have we got this all wrong?

No, everything is happening and i am not controlling my situation. Thoughts are very useful but not needed.

I'll admit that i may have taken my foot off the gas a little bit. I was being very persistent and focused with my attention and inquiring into what is real. I guess when i started to have certain experiences the self said, great i can start to relax a bit now. I thought the rest would fall into pace easily. The seeking has stopped and i have been making excuses. I need to persevere and go further.

[blackh]

Gidday Patrick,

Focus and perseverance are key ingredients and there's a balance between them. I rely on your descriptions of where you're at, and what you've written is great. Keep going like that. I understand that when I ask a question it can be difficult to find the time to give it justice, but if you could post more frequently - even if you have nothing to say - it would help me keep your focus on profitable things.

I know this sounds silly but i think i have this idea that going long periods of time where i am busy, paying a lot of attention to the self that i am somehow building the self back up again. And that a lot of the work i have been doing to see the illusion of self is being undone. But i know that when i focus, the truth is always there right in front of me.

Not silly at all. The situation you're in is where observation is saying one thing, and the mind is shouting another. It's like one of those Distraction game shows where you have to answer questions while getting cream pies in the face. Sometimes the mind can even actively distract you from inquiring - skeptical doubt, ideas that what you're doing is futile or not worth the effort (I assure you most people who have done it think it was well worth the effort), sudden boredom, even sleepiness.

If skepticism is an issue, you might consider this: 1. Define "self". What does it actually mean to be something? What does it mean not to be something? Experience has a certain structure. Is there some inherent property that makes the thoughts, the body, or the awareness parts of it "you" but not the tree parts?

2. This belief in a self - what evidence is it based on?

3. Is "that's what everyone thinks" a valid reason to believe in something?

Could it be that self lives in the gap between a vague definition and a lack of evidence?
First ask, "Is what the mind is saying true?" If not, ask "How do I deal with ads on a TV in a waiting room?"

Quantity of looking is important. The way to guarantee lots of looking is to take delight in it.
Look inside the body. Start from the top of the head, and scan slowly downwards to the feet. Can anything be found other than body sensations?
Look at the initiation of actions. Anything found other than actions occurring?
Look at the place where thoughts come from. Anything there other than thoughts arising?
Look into your innermost being - the subconscious or the depths of the soul. Anything found there?
Peaceful, isn't it!


Steve

[Gilford]

I understand that when I ask a question it can be difficult to find the time to give it justice, but if you could post more frequently - even if you have nothing to say - it would help me keep your focus on profitable things.

I apologize Steve, you are correct. I will try to post more frequently. Everything was falling into place when i was posting more and looking more often. It's difficult to explain why this slowed down. It was like the mind hit back hard.

1. Define "self". What does it actually mean to be something? What does it mean not to be something? Experience has a certain structure. Is there some inherent property that makes the thoughts, the body, or the awareness parts of it "you" but not the tree parts?

Self is the the mind and the body. It is contained within my body boundaries. It has a history, plans for the future, a name, a personality, likes, dislikes, traits, beliefs etc. What do i think it would be like to not have this identity? Well, that's already started for me. I don't identify with a lot of my old beliefs. Life is just full of experiences. One after the other with no gaps in between. But i have no idea what it would be like to not have some sense of a me. But there is a huge burning desire to find out.

It's amazing to me now how strong and rooted beliefs are. How we all have just taken things for granted and never closely looked at experience. It never occurred to us. I feel like i'm separate because of these beliefs and because the mind is so persistent. But at the same time i can understand it because i only experience other objects when i am close enough to see them or feel them...

2. This belief in a self - what evidence is it based on?

There is no evidence. Just a worldwide prevailing belief.

3. Is "that's what everyone thinks" a valid reason to believe in something?

Certainly not.

First ask, "Is what the mind is saying true?" If not, ask "How do I deal with ads on a TV in a waiting room?"

No, what it says can be correct but not true. It's basically like Siri, it can only say what it has been programmed to say. Cell phones have cameras but cannot see, speakers but cannot talk, touch screens but cannot feel, memory and processors but do not think, mics but do not hear. There's no self inside the phone doing everything and experiencing.

Quantity of looking is important. The way to guarantee lots of looking is to take delight in it.

Thank you. This is very helpful.

Look inside the body. Start from the top of the head, and scan slowly downwards to the feet. Can anything be found other than body sensations?
Look at the initiation of actions. Anything found other than actions occurring?
Look at the place where thoughts come from. Anything there other than thoughts arising?
Look into your innermost being - the subconscious or the depths of the soul. Anything found there?

Theres no self here! I just need to do this throughout the day as often as i remember.

Peaceful, isn't it!

It certainly is.

Sorry to go off topic a little bit but do you mind if i ask you a question out of curiosity? Is there a difference between waking up from the illusion of self and enlightenment? I can see that there are varying degrees of waking up but is there a point at which someone is enlightened which would be considered different to just not identifying with self?

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Sorry to go off topic a little bit but do you mind if i ask you a question out of curiosity? Is there a difference between waking up from the illusion of self and enlightenment? I can see that there are varying degrees of waking up but is there a point at which someone is enlightened which would be considered different to just not identifying with self?

All you are really doing is seeing through an illusion at a subconscious level, and that can feel awakening-like. I wouldn't describe it that way myself. More a lightness and relief.

It's the first stage of enlightenment (in the Buddhist sense of the word). The Buddhists call it stream entry. There are more illusions to see through after that, some of which are vestiges of belief in a self. At this stage you will still see separation between "me" and the world, for instance, but it might be weakened.

Everything was falling into place when i was posting more and looking more often. It's difficult to explain why this slowed down. It was like the mind hit back hard.

It often actively resists at this point. There's a belief that the self is an entity with a will, and that its survival depends on staying in control.

Can a mind be found in experience? That is, can anything be found other than thoughts arising?

Is there a self, or are there only thoughts about a self?
What can a thought do? Can a thought think? Does it have the power of volition?


Steve

[Gilford]

Can a mind be found in experience? That is, can anything be found other than thoughts arising?

No. The idea that the mind is an entity is only another thought. Only thoughts can be found.

Is there a self, or are there only thoughts about a self?
What can a thought do? Can a thought think? Does it have the power of volition?

Thoughts are just thoughts. They just label experiences as 'mine'. Thoughts do not think. They have no volition.

I asked myself last night, 'why do i still believe in a self?'. And the answer was, 'wait a minute, i don't believe in a self'. There was absolutely no doubt. There is no doubt right now either. 'I' and 'me' thoughts are still arising all the time. I can see them as just thoughts. They don't affect me like they used. They don't affect me like they did 2 weeks ago.

The desire for seeking has dropped off quite a bit and is replaced by a desire to experience life. I want to get outside in nature and i want to experience people and places. I just watched a soccer match and it was great. I didn't really care about the outcome, i just watched it to enjoy it. Work is easier too. Still, i'd rather be doing something else other than working but it's still ok. I don't feel that any challenge that work brings can affect me too much. There is a lot of peace.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

I asked myself last night, 'why do i still believe in a self?'. And the answer was, 'wait a minute, i don't believe in a self'. There was absolutely no doubt. There is no doubt right now either. 'I' and 'me' thoughts are still arising all the time. I can see them as just thoughts. They don't affect me like they used. They don't affect me like they did 2 weeks ago.

It's often like that - questions are powerful things! The 'I' thoughts will keep coming but they're looking more like the spaceship in the 3D movie - they only appear to be real. You will still have times when you slip back into believing them, but they will get less and less.

Note that it is possible to backslide if you get lazy. Enjoy looking, and you will interact with the world directly and overcome the habit of approaching it through thought. Thought will come into proper balance and will be there when needed. This is not difficult because looking is effortless. It's only effort at the beginning.

This is a beginning. It will deepen and unfold, and it'll become increasingly clear that it's happening by itself.

Still, i'd rather be doing something else other than working but it's still ok.

For me, work was one of the last things to be transformed, but it has been. I used to have a lack of focus, and then frustration as I tried to get work done. Now I work when I'm working and don't work when I'm not. I think seeing through the self makes you more efficient. Worrying about what you need to do is replaced by doing it.

---

I'm happy to keep guiding you as long as you're not sure about anything. But we have six final questions we ask and this would mark the end of the formal guiding process. After that I am happy to talk to you any time you want. You'll get access to a whole lot of community stuff mostly in Facebook groups. Are you ready for those?


Steve

[Gilford]

Thanks Steve. Yes I'm ready for the final questions. I feel that you have helped me a lot and I am very grateful. I also feel that you have given me the tools I need to progress.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Oh dear... Sorry about the delay... My mistake missing your post.

Thank you - I have really enjoyed it! It's been a privilege to have had the opportunity to guide you. I hope that "your life" deepens into "life" and is transformed for the better, as it has been for me. The best way to show gratitude is to consider paying it forward by becoming a guide, though of course this is not for everyone.

Here are the questions:

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
   Was there ever?
2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
   Describe it fully as you see it now.
3. How does it feel to see this?
   What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
   Please report from the past few days.
4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
   What makes things happen?
   How does it work?
   What are you responsible for?
   Give examples from experience.
6. Anything to add?

Steve

[Gilford]

Oh dear... Sorry about the delay... My mistake missing your post.

Hi Steve,

No problem at all.

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there is no self, no entity here and there never was.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The self is a concept. It is an idea that i am a combination of body and mind. It is a belief that there is an entity that has likes, dislikes, a history, future goals, traits, qualities, feelings... All of these are just thoughts. Millions of thoughts that give the impression of something concrete. But thoughts are just thoughts. They come and they go.

The incessant mind labels all experience as 'my experience'. All thoughts are about an 'i' and they never stopped long enough for me to ever even question the fact that they are just happening and i am not controlling them. That there is no I to control them. At least, that was my experience up to a year or so ago.

I can see now that this self is an illusion. But even as i try to write this, there is an idea that someone is writing this, trying to come up with ideas. Trying to 'think'. But, i only have to stop and looks and see that this isn't real. I've seen through this trick of the mind so much of late that it is becoming easier all the time. It's almost like a game.

How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

I wondered if i would experience any fear or sadness from seeing that this thing that i spent all my life acknowledging and loving, is not real. But i don't. The desire for truth was stronger than any other emotion. It is a relief that i have seen through the illusion. How could anyone decide to keep up the charade after they first caught a glimpse of the truth?

Before i started this dialogue there was one big thing that i was getting hung up on. I could see that the self wasn't real but i was under the impression that the 'real me' was here in it's place. I had heard so many spiritual teachers say that there is a real me behind the false self and that this is God. In a way, i see now what they are getting at but all that was happening was the false self was playing a game and pretending to be the 'real me' When i looked at a tree i thought that the real me was looking and not this false self. But you helped me see that there is no one here. No entity seeing the tree. There is just seeing.

The last week has been interesting. One day last week i had to work 16 hours because someone had left our office and i had to help with a deadline. And it was fine. A little frustration but that didn't last long. Usually, i would have felt a lot of anger at having been put in that situation but i saw that it had to be done and i did it. I think i even got enjoyment out of it. Life is much easier now. Over the weekend i was much more productive than usual. Chores got done without any procrastination. At times, something is rising in my heart and i feel that i might just burst any second with excitement. It's fun!

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.
What makes things happen?
How does it work?
What are you responsible for?
Give examples from experience.

This is another area that you have helped me a great deal with - the illusion of free will. I believe the word you used was "claiming". The way thought suggests that actions are the result of a series of choices by the self and taking the responsibility for the action. Sometimes thought will come first like, "i need to do..." and then when the action happens, thought take responsibility. The idea that there is a self that is controlling everything is just another idea - a thought. Everything is just happening by itself. There is not controller, or chooser or doer.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It's hard to say what the final one was because it was unfolding over a period of time. But a big one was a couple of weeks ago you asked me to look at my experience and then see who was looking. So i meditated and i watched my experience. There were only thoughts, sounds and sensations happening. I was only aware of these things so i looked at who was aware. I guess it had always felt like there must be someone aware but this was just a trick of the mind. There is no entity here having experiences. There is just experience itself.

Anything to add?

Yes. I want to thank you again for all your help. I think that what you and all the other guides are doing here is fantastic. I also want to say that i am not 'there' yet. But writing this has really shown me how far i've come over the past few weeks. OK, i am still waiting for an aha moment. But i've seen through so many illusions and i am not being stagnant right now. I can see that things are still unfolding all the time for me. Thoughts about 'I' are still happening but i see through them so easily. I feel like a weight has been lifted. I wanted to stop seeking and this seems to be just stopping by itself. There's nothing to seek and there's no seeker! I also wanted to see the truth, to see through the illusion of self and i've seen this. I feel i can see this whenever i want. How could i not? It's right here.

[blackh]

Patrick - Great! Thank you for your answers.

I've submitted this to the other guides to check my work and make sure we've covered everything. This can take a couple of days. There may be some further questions.


Steve

[blackh]

Patrick,

That was quick! The other guides are happy and there are no more questions.

Your user id will change to a blue colour on the forum, and that'll give you access to some more forum areas. But most of the post-guiding activity takes place on Facebook. Keep an eye on your private messages on the forum. You'll receive one from me and one from an admin who will invite you to a Facebook group called LU Aftercare. This is highly recommended. There you'll find people in the same situation as yourself, and support. We all need a bit of that sometimes after the gate, as it can be trying at times. It's not as if you can talk to anyone else about this stuff. I recommend LU Aftercare so highly that it's worth joining Facebook for.

From there you can also look into different paths of further investigation, as well as training to be a guide if that suits you.

And of course, please talk to me any time you like, either privately or in LU Aftercare.

About the 'aha moment': I always emphasize that things are different for everyone, but in my assessment you may not get an 'aha moment' specifically about going through the gate. I think this because I think you've already realized the things that you would be expected to 'aha' about at the gate. Having said that, this is a beginning and you can expect ongoing insights, shifts and aha moments.

It's been a pleasure!


Steve

[Gilford]

About the 'aha moment': I always emphasize that things are different for everyone, but in my assessment you may not get an 'aha moment' specifically about going through the gate. I think this because I think you've already realized the things that you would be expected to 'aha' about at the gate. Having said that, this is a beginning and you can expect ongoing insights, shifts and aha moments.

It's been a pleasure!

That makes sense. Thanks again and i'm sure we'll cross paths again in the future. I'll be sure to check out the facebook page too.