Some help would be fantastic!

[marcel2]

what I can say for sure is that the "I" is not who "I" am, whatever I thought the "I" to be, I think no longer. let me probe this question about "driving body" and making things happen a liiiittle bit more before the big fat yes :)

a self is a label, a trigger for certain semi-random thoughts and feelings, a placeholder for something that does not exist; a sign without a signifier, a bit of language. the self is not a subject, but an object, not experiencing, but being experienced

[marcel2]

the I is not an entity that drives the body!

[Ilona]

Wonderful!
What drives the body?

[marcel2]

well, no one-thing drives the body as far as I can tell.
sorry for the late responses! there is definitely stuff going on... just difficult to put into words.

[Ilona]

ah, well, yes, words are so limited! but that's all we have got :)

so are you clear about this illusion of separate self?
is there any doubt?
are you ready for the final questions?

how does it feel to answer that?

sending love

[marcel2]

yes, what was previously assumed to be "me" is clearly an illusion in that sense that it isn't what I thought it would be.
I do wanna be careful to not overextend myself here! I'm not 100% confident in the relationship between what appears inside "my" consciousness and the world "outside". is there still a sense of separation though? not exactly... it's a bit blurry, and possibly another language game, where "me" is expanded to just be the same as "sum of all experience as is experienced". so that "me" is very different from the old "me", and feels like mostly a habit of labeling.

but, the separate self as a "thing" that is "me" I am confident is an illusion.

ready for the question? hmm. it's hard to say :)

how does it feel to answer what exactly?

[Ilona]

thanks for reply. lets examine the sensation of separateness closely. can you find a line that separates here from there? inside from outside? try with both eyes open and closed. where is that 'me' ends and out there begins? is body a container of inside? is there a container of awareness? can you find an edge?
what sensation precisely is the sense of separateness? what is that sensation without a name?
what is that claims world to be MINE?

sit with these questions and report back what you find.

sending love

[marcel2]

no, I cannot find such a line.
when eyes are closed, the world is dark but only "my" world, or so it is assumed. I guess the "separation" stems from the parts of experience that seem to be only experienced by "me". the body is not a container, no... no container, just awareness (the "container"/body is rather in awareness than the other way around)
hmm. nothing really claims the world to be mine, it just that it feels like (some) experiences are "local" to "my" awareness.
I cannot seem to find a particular sensation of separateness, other that that certain stuff that arises are labeled with "agency". for example, closing eyes, walking etc, as opposed to stuff arising that is not labeled in such a way (hearing a sound).
perhaps there is a similar illusion at play here though, like when assuming certain thoughts are the self...

[Ilona]

so you can not find a line nor a sensation of separateness, but you say :

I guess the "separation" stems from the parts of experience that seem to be only experienced by "me".

in experience it's clear, there is nothing separate, but the mind thinks that there is.
i guess, it seems - that's all mind trying to make sense. but what is actually true?
look in experience, is there a separate entity to which life is happening? is there an entity to which vision, smells, touch, sound is happening? or an entity is assumed because that's what everybody seems to believe?

find what is true.
sending love

[marcel2]

no, there really isn't an entity as such, only that certain stuff seems to be only happening locally, in "my" awareness. but on the other hand, there are no line, so what is even the "local awareness"/"my awareness"... in "my" field of awareness stuff happens, even if they're not happening to an entity as such, they seem to not happen in other peoples field of awareness. for example thoughts, feelings. so it's not so much that these thoughts and feelings are thought and felt by an entity, just that they seem to be experienced only in this field of awareness (as opposed to a tree, or the sun, or a bird singing, which seems to exist roughly the same in other peoples awareness). so the separation is perhaps between things that is perceived only by "me" (labeled "inside") and things that are also perceived, or can be perceived by others ("outside")

[Ilona]

well thoughts about other people's thoughts and emotions are still happening in undivided awareness, are they not? how do you even know that other people are thinking? what informs you about that?

where is the line between you and other? really look! is it one movement of happening or there are two individual movements that are not dependent on each other or circumstance? is there i behind eyes looking out?

write what feels true

[marcel2]

undivided awareness... yes. strictly I don't know that they're thinking, it's an educated guess!

there is only a line between bodies, or at least something that can be conceived of as a "line".
it is one movement, or perhaps just "movement"

no I looking "out", no...

[Ilona]

no i looking out :) how does it feel to see this?

[marcel2]

hmm, it feels like I've seen that for some time actually!

[Ilona]

nice! so does it feel that this conversation answered your question? did you find what you were looking for?