Per aspera ad astra

[JonathanR]

Hi agata,

Good to hear from you :-)

I have had sort of love or hate relationship with this inquiry. There is still the feeling of unworthiness of being here at the forum,like i haven't done enough pre-work as opposed to other people here. I have carried on with it though during a break-up, house move, turbulent external circumstances and i can not justify dropping this investigation now, unless you strongly advice me to. You have a considerable experience of this process as opposed to 'me' and if you really think that a break will be good for me at this point than i will happily follow your advise. How do i determine if i am ready to carry on? It feels like the flood gate is open, i can handle, see the most uncomfortable feeling i have been suppressing- the discomfort of being me . And i have sort of come to terms that I might always live with this feeling and 'carry' it around with it like a heavy sack of potatoes .. and i am willing to wake up each morning and keep carrying that sack- some days its lighter, someday its heavier and some days it feels totally empty and carrying around it all my life has been worth it just for this one glimpse of an experience of a weightless sack.

Don't bother to compare yourself to others here. Some will appear to have 'done a lot' of preparation. Others will appear not to have done much. It isn't about worthiness or unworthiness and provided there is simply willingness to look directly the inquiry does work. Besides, you have definitely kept at this inquiry even when it has been experienced as uncomfortable. Bravo! Do go on. I just wanted to check your enthusiasm and now I can see that you want to continue, that's great.

I think it is really wonderful that you have been prepared to look right at this discomfort of 'being me' and even more wonderful that sometimes the sack seems weightless. Not resisting experience is very very good.

No, though body conditions can restrict/shape your outer life in terms of things you can or can not do/lifestyle you lead, there is this vast miraculous space inside which is free despite bodily conditions

Lovely!

I think the 'issue' with discovering this is the fear of loss of the imaginary control we have over our lives and the not knowing where this ability to shape things/live our life is coming from

It can be fun, like a rollercoaster, exhillarating. There is no control but somehow the ride is complex and wonderful too.

I was going to say that I finally experienced who i thought i was not, but i can not experience what I am not. That leaves me to say that i can not discover that which i am not. My experience is already who i am, there can not be a different 'i' to what 'i' am experiencing now, to what 'i' have been experiencing all these years.

Yes and is there even a 'who'?

I will post the six questions to you again tomorrow.

love,

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

I just wanted to check your enthusiasm and now I can see that you want to continue, that's great.
I think it is really wonderful that you have been prepared to look right at this discomfort of 'being me' and even more wonderful that sometimes the sack seems weightless. Not resisting experience is very very good.

The enthusiasm has been always there, even though sometimes it may not come across this way due to my non consistency and some external circumstances and at times it just felt that more time was required to respond to church the questions over.

Yes, this non resistance has been really working for me, as there was no awareness before of pushing discomfort away. The thoughts/feelings/emotions which 'i' wanted to hide and push into the far dark corner are not so scary anymore and there is no such strong aversion for it. Embracing it all even the 'dark' side has been freeing. It was like i was digging a well only halfway and abandoned it until there was dozens of wells but i was still thirsty- and this inquiry is helping me to keep digging my first well, no hiding away anymore :)

Yes and is there even a 'who'? I will post the six questions to you again tomorrow.

Very valid point! I guess i am the experience itself. Looking forward to answering the questions and again i will respond to my direct experience as it is now without looking at the previous responses.

Love& gratitude for your patience and guidance

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

Embracing it all even the 'dark' side has been freeing. It was like i was digging a well only halfway and abandoned it until there was dozens of wells but i was still thirsty- and this inquiry is helping me to keep digging my first well, no hiding away anymore :)

How beautiful :-) There can often be the thought or impulse to move away from the here and now, especially if it feels uncomfortable but isn't it the case that in looking it's only ever possible to find 'right now' anyway?

Love& gratitude for your patience and guidance

Thank you Agata :-) Thank you for the opportunity to share it.

Here are the first three again...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2)Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now as if to someone who had never heard of noself before?

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

(As you say, from direct experience :-))

love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't and there has never been 'one' when exploring the direct experience. It is a conditioning of our society.

2)Please explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now as if to someone who had never heard of noself before?

Separate self is a belief that we are our body and our mind. But when this belief is questioned then is is revealed that body is a sensory experience. All there is to my body is smelling of, it seeing of it, feeling/touching of it/hearing of the voice..And the same applies to the 'objects' surrounding us- all there is to seeing a sunset is the sensory experience of it. and as our experience is sensory there is no separation from one object to another, when i see another person, all there is to that person is seeing, hearing, smelling... of that person. In addition to this experience, there is an experiencing of thoughts and this is when things get tangled up. We believe that they are 'our' thoughts and fact they are just thoughts, there is no-one there found generating the thoughts for instance it can not be predicted what is going to be the next thought which will arise..the thought can not be avoided.. the thought can not be created.

3)How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is an underlying calmness to my daily experiences. Less agitation, less fear, less judgement, more compassion, more acceptance. Stuff is still coming up and sometimes the labels are being attached to the sensation experienced. Today my colleague said something that triggered the blood rushing to my face and fists clenching and the label of 'anger' was created. And at that moment thoughts came up 'this colleague is horrible' , 'she is making my life miserable' .. However, there was a recognition that these thoughts are not real, they just arose and there was no 'rejection'. The major difference after this dialogue commenced is the ability to embrace all these not very pleasant sensations and thoughts i.e. emotions. Before it felt like they needed to be hidden, hidden away from 'myself', from others, there were feelings of guilt. Now it feels like 'the skeletons from my closet' can come out and have a little dance. Sensations are free to come and go, thoughts are free to come and go..
Also the life has acquired a quality of playfulness, as there is less limitation to a 'personality' there is a sensation of limitless possibilities, a feeling of wonder :)

Love

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata

Thank you for those super answers.

Here are the rest of the questions. As always, answer as much as possible from from direct experience.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

Anything to add?



love

Jon

[Aspera]

Hi Jon

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Understanding that there is nothing to be afraid of. The fear of facing things is greater than actually facing them. And that there is actually no fear at all, that my behavior can be arising spontaneously at each given moment and it doesn't have to be a response to the fearful thoughts. Also dropping pressure on myself to understand, the understanding sort of dawns on you. Also dropping the judgement, dropping the labels, accepting whatever is here in front of me, accepting that some sensation can be very strong and unpleasant in the body and that it might take a while to sit with it. Understanding that there is no place 'i' need to get to, that 'i' an not a failure that life is like a music and we be just free to dance and sing. And of course the fact of sharing everything, no matter how 'wacky' i thought some of the responses were, there was a safety of this platform to express and knowing that 'i' can't say anything wrong or give a wrong answer..

Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

On Friday, there was an intention to make a banana cake which arose in the form of thought- it was not 'my' intention ,the thought just spontaneously arose and then another thought appeared to confirm that this is a good idea to make it, as there are all the right ingredients for it in the cupboard. The intention was to make it yesterday and but somehow things got in the way and i was celebrating my friends birthday, so i managed to bake it only today. So events can not be controlled either. With regards to the choice- i looked at various recipes online and then looking at Mary Berry's recipe, the sensation which felt good arose in the belly which followed by the thought- yeah, this cake will be a killer! This is a complex description of a cake making, but it breaks down the steps how things happen in our lives and the delicious banana cake i now have as a result could be any other cake, there could be no cake at all made, it could have burnt etc. Consequently there is no solid entity making things happen, life sort of unfolds!

Anything to add?

Also noticed that relationships with others feel a bit more smoother and natural. There was a bit of a arguments going on with my housemates around cleaning in the house and there were difficulties to discuss things on my part as usually i avoid conflicts. This time around there was more ease when the situation was discussed and the usual 'uneasiness' didn't arise and i was able to calmly communicate the points across.

And when the answers are being written to you, i am in this 'direct looking mode' and helpful thoughts come in, sort of answers to the things I was unclear what to do about before :)

with love and gratitude

Agata

[JonathanR]

Hello Agata,


Thank you for such beautiful and full answers. I am moved by them :-)

I would like to invite other guides to take a look at our conversation now. They may or may not have further questions. I will let you know so check back. It may take a day or two for guides to respond.

Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Agata,

I'm very pleased to say that the other guides really like our conversation and do not have further questions.

You have confirmed it yourself that the gateless gate has been crossed. Well done and congratulations!

Do you know that you can receive a private message via this forum? You can find any PMs at the top of the Gate page (above), very near to the search bar. I'm going to PM you with some information. Please be sure to check that. If you have any difficulty accessing this just let me know here.

Thank you so much Agata. It has been a pleasure to share this journey with you.

love

Jon