Anything more than intellectual understanding of this?

[xyzzy]

I can see that there isn't a separate me inside my head or wherever which is controlling my thoughts and actions. I am actually this experience, and I'm not controlling anything.

However, seeing this doesn't change anything. I still feel as if there's a me at the center of everything, and as if I'm controlling my thoughts and as if I can control my actions. It seems that seeing the reality of the situation is fairly useless if it doesn't change anything.

Is it possible to have more than an intellectual understanding of this?

By the way, I'm 45 years old, and my name is Edward.

[Eloratea]

Hello Edward,

Yes, it is possible more than just intellectual understanding, but you have to be willing to take the consequences of seeing it. Once you see it clearly, there need to be willingness to let go, to surrender to Life, to inner guidance.
On one side if the separate self is just illusion and as always been just that, nothing changes in reality. Beliefs don't influence reality, BUT have influence on life's experience. Once beliefs are cleared experience of life changes. If not, than as you have noticed it is not real understanding and has no value.
So, there must be readiness and honesty for this. It is serious.
You may read some threads here to see if such kind of investigation and conversation resonates with you.

If yes – look within and answer - is there you right now anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Is there you in direct experience, or „you“ is just a thought?

Best wishes.

[xyzzy]

Hi Eloratea.

There's a feeling that there is a me which is at the center of everything and which can do things. It seems to be more a feeling than a thought, although of course there are me thoughts as well. If I look, I can't find anything there, though, nothing doing things, nothing there at all.

I wouldn't say that there is no me, though, as this seems like a strange thing to say. This experience exists, so I am this experience, so there is a me.

I think all of the above, but I don't feel it.

[Eloratea]

This experience exists,

Yes, undeniable.

so I am this experience

Now, that is a thought. Can you see the difference between direct experiencing and thoughts? Thoughts labeling the experiences, adding label „I“ to the pure experience. As it might be useful in some cases, it might be also reality distorting in many cases.

so there is a me.

There isn't. :)
I, me, mine are just thoughts, concepts.
Try experiencing life this way and see how it fits, how it feels.

Best wishes.

[xyzzy]

I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying. Yes, "I" and "me" and such are just thoughts, rather than direct experience. But "there is no me" is also a thought. I'm trying to figure out if you and I are actually disagreeing about something, or just defining the word "me" differently.

The usual definition of "I" or "me" is something that has experiences and has a body and can control the body and think thoughts and so on. This sort of me doesn't exist. I'm redefining "I/me" to mean "this experience", which clearly does exist.

Do you think this is something which is leading to confusion?

[Eloratea]

Hello Edward,
You are right, self and no-self are both thoughts, concepts.

But, yes I think labeling impersonal life, awareness, presence… with "I"/"me" mostly leads to confusion; to creating imaginary boundaries and than believing in them and consequently narrowing the experience...

Observe how and when you use those labels and how it feels.
Do you feel that there is something tangible behind, something real? Or you feel some falseness, emptiness behind? Or some lightness and fullness without boundaries?
Is there difference in different situations?

[xyzzy]

I've been looking at this, and I think you're right about this. It seems that it's better to say that there is no me, rather than to say that this experience is me. It feels different, and it somehow feels more clear to say that there is no me. Saying "I am this experience" does seem to perpetuate the illusion of an "I". Intellectually, it wouldn't seem to matter one way or the other, but it feels different.

So, there is this experience, but there is no me. Now what?

[Eloratea]

So, there is this experience, but there is no me. Now what?

Do you see that there is no you in any shape or form?
Isn't that liberating?
If you believe for some time in something than you see it is not real, there is a subtle change inside, though outside nothing changes, as unreal never existed.
Are there in place some expectations and prejudices what should happen now and how life should look like?

Or there are still in function some mechanism protecting full realization of the truth with its consequences?
Like „ok now I know that, what's next?“ It sounds like self illusion continues further in a bit different way.

Can you see the difference if life flows freely without little separate selfs having to struggle in various ways for manifold false reasons just to keep alive self-illusion?

What now as what wherever is going to be revealed from within, step by step. If there is a will to listen.

[xyzzy]

Do you see that there is no you in any shape or form?
Isn't that liberating?

I see it, but it isn't liberating.

When I was 16 (almost 30 years ago), I had a realization, that "nothing matters". Another way of putting this is that everything is ok as it is. Any idea that things should be different or that something is right or wrong or good or bad is just an idea, and doesn't exist outside the mind. This understanding wasn't liberating, because it didn't change how I felt in any way. Things still felt good or bad, right or wrong, it still felt like things "should" or "shouldn't" be one way or another, and the intellectual knowing that all things simply are as they are, this didn't change anything.

Seeing that there is no "me" seems to be much the same.

Are there in place some expectations and prejudices what should happen now and how life should look like?

I find life to be unsatisfying. Nothing much feels good, or meaningful. There is a desire for something, but I don't know what it is that I want. Something good, or meaningful, love, god, I don't know what. My attempts to solve this, or to understand it, are what lead me to look at questions like "is there a self?'

[Eloratea]

Ok, I see.
Now, if there is no you, just one life, one experience here and now, for whom it can be unsatisfying? If there is no gap between you and life, if there is no two, just one.

If god and love aren’t just concepts but something real, how do you expect it to manifest?
If there is nothing but here and now, everything that is must be here and now.
Can you just sit with those feelings of dissatisfaction and look deeper within what hides beneath?


Best wishes.

[xyzzy]

Now, if there is no you, just one life, one experience here and now, for whom it can be unsatisfying? If there is no gap between you and life, if there is no two, just one.

If god and love aren’t just concepts but something real, how do you expect it to manifest?

I don't know that there has to be a "who" for life to be unsatisfying. There is a feeling of dissatisfaction, of wanting something more or different. I would expect it to manifest as a feeling of some sort, something which felt good or meaningful or whatever.

Can you just sit with those feelings of dissatisfaction and look deeper within what hides beneath?

As I go through life, nothing feels good, and most of the time I'm not paying any attention to this. From time to time, this starts to bother me, there is a desire for something, something good, meaningful, whatever. Then there's a feeling of unhappiness because it's not there and there's nothing that can be done about this.

[Eloratea]

I don't know that there has to be a "who" for life to be unsatisfying. There is a feeling of dissatisfaction, of wanting something more or different.

Is this feeling yours or it is just a feeling? Passing as a cloud on the sky?

Are there some specific thoughts triggering such feelings? Some expectations how this moment should look like?

If god and love aren’t just concepts but something real, how do you expect it to manifest?
I would expect it to manifest as a feeling of some sort, something which felt good or meaningful or whatever.

Who is expecting it?
Where those expectations come from?
Are you ready to investigate this? To see are those expectations real? Or they are just thoughts picked up, triggering the feelings of dissatisfaction?

Can you just sit with those feelings of dissatisfaction and look deeper within what hides beneath?

As I go through life, nothing feels good, and most of the time I'm not paying any attention to this. From time to time, this starts to bother me, there is a desire for something, something good, meaningful, whatever. Then there's a feeling of unhappiness because it's not there and there's nothing that can be done about this.

I asked can you really sit whit that, look more deeply where this dissatisfaction comes from? Dive deeply in it. See if it’s real? What is its source?
Is it about some imagined concepts that keep you away from experiencing fully and freshly life here and now?

[xyzzy]

Is this feeling yours or it is just a feeling? Passing as a cloud on the sky?

It's not mine, but it feels like there's a me and that the feeling is mine.

I asked can you really sit whit that, look more deeply where this dissatisfaction comes from? Dive deeply in it. See if it’s real? What is its source?
Is it about some imagined concepts that keep you away from experiencing fully and freshly life here and now?

I don't know how to look deeply at a feeling. I can look at it, and tell you what thoughts come up. There are thoughts like, "I don't like this, I want something different, I want something better". I don't know if these thoughts are deeper than what I said before about dissatisfaction and wanting something good.

You are going to ask me if there is an I that likes things, wants things, and the answer is no. But there is a desire for this experience to be different.

[Eloratea]

Is this feeling yours or it is just a feeling? Passing as a cloud on the sky?

It's not mine, but it feels like there's a me and that the feeling is mine.

Can you describe this feeling of "mine"?

I don't know how to look deeply at a feeling.
I can look at it, and tell you what thoughts come up. There are thoughts like, "I don't like this, I want something different, I want something better".

It means feel the feeling, don’t resist and leave the story, leave the thoughts interpreting the feelings. Just feel pure sensation.
What is feeling anyway without thoughts? Sensation in the body?

You are going to ask me if there is an I that likes things, wants things, and the answer is no. But there is a desire for this experience to be different.

Ok, there is desire for this experience to be different. But this experience already is as it is.
Is something wrong with reality?
What is more real – thoughts telling the story about how things should be, or this what is?

[xyzzy]

Can you describe this feeling of "mine"?

There's a feeling of dissatisfaction and thoughts which go along with it which relate to "me", and the thoughts feel true. Like, "I want this experience to be different", that feels true, even though there is no "I". And taking out the "I" still leaves "want this experience to be different".

Ok, there is desire for this experience to be different. But this experience already is as it is.
Is something wrong with reality?

Nothing is wrong with reality, but it feels wrong. Which means that there is some feeling of being upset or whatever it might be, and behind it (if I stopped to look at it) there are thoughts like "this is wrong, this should be different". The thoughts are not true, but they feel true. The feelings and thoughts go together. They're obviously not just thoughts, because they don't disappear or change when it is seen that they're not true. They are felt, which makes them something more somehow.

What is more real – thoughts telling the story about how things should be, or this what is?

I don't know what it means for something to be more real than something else. There is this experience, which includes thoughts and feelings that it should be different or that I want it to be different. I know that it isn't actually possible for it to be different right now, and that nothing "should" be anything.