Who am I?

[blackh]

Patrick,

I really appreciate how generous you have been with your time. Thank you.

If I can make you happy, then I will be happy too!

Nice list. Thanks for that.

When i experience fear (stress, anxiety, worry).

Please tell me when this or anything self-like comes up so we can look at a real example.
---

If someone challenges me and i get defensive. Sometimes there is a need to explain why i did something.

This reaction would include body sensations and thoughts. So, let's take this as an example:

Does it feel like you are "inside" and the world is "outside"?
Is there an "I" in there with free will? (Keep doing those exercises until this answered.)
Is the body sensation component of the reaction "me"?
Is the thought component of the reaction "me"?
Is there anything to this reaction other than body sensation and thought?
If the body sensation occurred without the thoughts, would it be painful?
Is there anything in thought content other than information?


Steve

[Gilford]

Does it feel like you are "inside" and the world is "outside"?

Yes. And not only when strong emotions come up. It always feels like this.

Is there an "I" in there with free will?

No there isn't. It feels less and less like there is an 'i' in control. But still there most of the time.

Is the body sensation component of the reaction "me"? Is the thought component of the reaction "me"?

No. They bring up the sense of a 'me' but there is no 'me'. It is just a sensation happening and a thought arising.

Is there anything to this reaction other than body sensation and thought?

No. Just a thought that label the thoughts and sensations as 'me'.

If the body sensation occurred without the thoughts, would it be painful?

No. The mind labels the sensation as 'worry', 'anger' etc. It is labelled as 'bad' or 'wrong'. But it is just a sensation.

Is there anything in thought content other than information?

No. It's just like getting an email. I didn't send it, it just arrived and it's just information.

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Great. Are you believing thought content? Isn't thought content fiction? Doesn't that mean that you're believing fiction?

Does it feel like you are "inside" and the world is "outside"?

Yes. And not only when strong emotions come up. It always feels like this.

This is something we can look at directly.

Houses have an inside and an outside, and there's a boundary between the two called a doorway. The inside looks distinctly different to the outside. So, look around your experience and tell me...

Can you locate the boundary between the inside and the outside?
Does the inside look different to the outside?
What things are experienced as "inside" and what are experienced as "outside"?
Where are thoughts located?


Steve

[Gilford]

Are you believing thought content? Isn't thought content fiction? Doesn't that mean that you're believing fiction?

Yes. Not on purpose. Sometimes, like when i'm in work, i may go long periods where my attention is goes to objects and i forget. I get lost in thought. Only when i realize this, can i see that there is no self.

Can you locate the boundary between the inside and the outside?
Does the inside look different to the outside?
What things are experienced as "inside" and what are experienced as "outside"?
Where are thoughts located?

Inside is like an emptiness and outside is filled with objects. That is how it feels. Sometimes the boundary feels like the skin/ eyes but other times there doesn't seem to be a boundary. I guess the emptiness is never really empty because it is always filled with something. Either with the objects i see or thoughts or sensations. Only when i meditate, do i get the sense of an emptiness. and there are no boundaries.

[blackh]

Patrick,

Yes. Not on purpose.

Of course that's to be expected because it's how the illusion works. It's really good to acknowledge this. The LU method works by persistent looking, and this affects a deep part of the mind deeper than thought. The mind has to be on-board with it - it wouldn't work if the mind totally rejected the idea. But, you can't think yourself to this realization, and you can't will yourself to it (the same thing). It simply can't be done.

When you think there is a self, find out what is really there, and if it turns out you are believing fiction, then just notice that. Don't assume that things are not there. Always look.

Inside is like an emptiness and outside is filled with objects. That is how it feels. Sometimes the boundary feels like the skin/ eyes but other times there doesn't seem to be a boundary.

Look at your experience now. Now look at this inside emptiness where "you" are presumed to be. Is there a presumption that actions or thoughts, emotions originate there? Can you find any evidence of this?

Can you locate a "place" in experience where thoughts come from?

Can you find any evidence of a self in this inside emptiness?

Are there any body sensations associated with it? I ask this because the mind is good at projecting (fictional) meaning onto experiences, including body sensations.

---

Presumably your innermost nature MUST be able to be experienced, because what other evidence can there be that it's your innermost nature? If you are an entity controlling, owning and managing your life, then there must be evidence of this somewhere in experience, right?


Steve

[Gilford]

Don't assume that things are not there. Always look.

I think i needed to hear this. Otherwise the mind is just saying it doesn't exist.

Is there a presumption that actions or thoughts, emotions originate there?

Yes this is the presumption. That they come from the emptiness.

Can you find any evidence of this?

No. I don't know where they come from.

Can you locate a "place" in experience where thoughts come from?

No.

Can you find any evidence of a self in this inside emptiness?

No, there is no evidence of self.

Are there any body sensations associated with it?

No. I have plenty of sensations happening when i meditate. But there is a point when everything goes quite and there is nothing. No thoughts, no sensations. It doesn't last for long before a thought pops up.

Presumably your innermost nature MUST be able to be experienced, because what other evidence can there be that it's your innermost nature? If you are an entity controlling, owning and managing your life, then there must be evidence of this somewhere in experience, right?

I never thought of it like that. I didn't think it could be experienced. I thought only objects could be experienced?

[blackh]

Patrick,

I thought only objects could be experienced?

If I'm telling you what to think, then I'm doing this wrong, so please don't let me do that. We may be getting ahead of ourselves here but it is an important issue. So I'll frame it as a question: Can there be such a thing as a hidden/invisible self? Maybe a soul or something like that?

OK - great. So let's summarize:

• There's a feeling of emptiness inside, but no evidence found that there is a self living there. So it seems we can say that any presumption of a self there can't be justified.
• Someone challenging you: I think you concluded that in that moment, there are thoughts about a self, but no evidence of an actual self.

So what remains? Where else does the self seem to be hiding?

You made a list earlier of situations where an apparent self shows up. We dealt with one of those above. Is there anywhere else you would like to look, maybe another item on that list?

If not, we can take a different approach, akin to searching each room of the house for the unicorn.


Steve

[Gilford]

Can there be such a thing as a hidden/invisible self? Maybe a soul or something like that?

I don't feel like i can answer this from experience. But it is something i've thought about before. A soul suggests separation. But everything is supposed to be one. If i look and say that there is just looking, this feels more correct than saying that a soul is looking.

Is there anywhere else you would like to look, maybe another item on that list?

I've thought about this today. Right now, i am struggling with getting the balance right. One one hand, i need to make plans, set goals, move forward and on the other hand, i am seeing that these things are products of the self.

To give you an example: i had a review today in work with the boss. It got to that part where he asks what area i'd like to progress / make changes / improve. But i don't think like that anymore. Some days i do have desires and i set goals. The 2 days later, my motivation is gone. It's tricky.

[blackh]

Patrick,

The LU approach only deals with what can be proven by looking in experience.

As for planning, goals and "self-improvement"... The self belief does less than people think it does. What "self" basically is is a wrong understanding of how the organism works. Most things work better without this wrong understanding. These three activities, for instance, are all just thoughts about future actions. No belief in a self is required.

Of course it takes a little while to get a new understanding of how it all functions.

As for goals and motivation, here is a something for you to consider: We generally think that things work this way... 1. understand what I want, and then 2. do it. We are then surprised that motivation has gone. Or to put that another way, what thought previously said I want is right now revealed not to be what I want.

I don't know if this is what you think or not, but if so, it contains an underlying assumption that thought drives action. I would encourage you to question that assumption. Do thoughts about actions come before or after the action, or both? What is the relationship? Watch your actions and see what you can see.


Steve

[Gilford]

Do thoughts about actions come before or after the action, or both? What is the relationship? Watch your actions and see what you can see.

Hi Steve,

Since we started discussing actions and their relationship with thought, i've noticed a lot more stuff happening without thought. There isn't a lot of thought before the action. Very often, the thought comes after. You used the word 'claiming' before and i can see how appropriate that is. When the attention stays with it, it feels like it's just happening. I could see it with simple actions like walking etc. but i'm starting to see it with more complex tasks like typing, chopping vegetables, washing the dishes. It's pretty cool.

[blackh]

Patrick,

You're seeing some good stuff there! Great! How much of a role thoughts play in actions is not clear, but it's a whole lot less than thoughts claim.

Well, let's take a different approach. We're now going to search the house for unicorns room-by-room. So let's make a complete list of the rooms.

What does experience consist of? Can you make a short list? It might start with "thoughts, sight, hearing, ...". What else would you put on that list?


Steve

[Gilford]

I would say experience consists of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, feeling, tasting, smelling) plus thinking. And i would say thinking is anything that happens in the mind (images, words, sounds, moving images etc.).

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

Let's look at sight, then. Have a look at something, maybe a view out a window.

Can you find in experience any sign of a seer doing the looking, or a gap between seer and the world that is seen, or is there just looking?


Steve

[Gilford]

There is no seer. I'll admit, it doesn't feel like there is no seer all the time and it's not always crystal clear. But now, relaxed and looking without thought, there is no seer. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "gap between seer and the world that is seen".

[blackh]

Hi Patrick,

By "gap between seer and the world that is seen" I'm asking if there's a detectable boundary between the subject/seer and the seeing. I'm not talking about space or depth perception. Treat that as part of what's seen.

Looking for this boundary might help you locate a seer.

I'll admit, it doesn't feel like there is no seer all the time and it's not always crystal clear.

When you look at a cup, you can't see the back of it, but the mind creates a mental image with the back of the cup filled in. In the same way, the mind "knows" you are there looking, so it creates a mental image of that. What you've got to do is discern between what is imagined to be there, and what can actually be found. It takes a bit of practice.

Another question to ask: if a real you can be found in a certain "place", then shouldn't it always be able to be found there?

---
Do the same exercise with sound. Close your eyes and listen for whatever sounds can be heard. Can a hearer that is separate to the hearing be found, or is there just hearing?

Can any boundary between a hearer and the hearing be found? That is, a place where you end and the hearing begins.


Steve