To see without any understanding

[movement11]

This isnt understandable and isnt seen cause it was never there.
Things happen with or without an I thought. And I thought will still be happening but it points to nothing.

You say I make sense of thing. Can you see that I make sense of things is another thought happening?

So, what I hear here is "I have never understood anything" EVEN when I wasn't questioning the concept of understanding. "making sense of things" is another thought happening. I am looking at that. And I feel like I am falling backwards now. Because it feels like it was a "me" that was doing it.

Confusion is happening.
Lack of clarity is happening.

[bth]

Haha welll uhh, im not suggesting that you never understood anything, or maybe I Am ;).

No jokes aside, what Im saying that there just thoughts happening. They are not to be seen in reality anywhere.

For example.

Place a cup in front of you

Look at the cup

Can the word cup accurately describe the reality you see?

If you put labeling aside for a bit and look at the object.

What remains?

( we will look at the last part of your post later on).

Barry


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[movement11]

Place a cup in front of you

Look at the cup

Can the word cup accurately describe the reality you see?

If you put labeling aside for a bit and look at the object.

What remains?

If I drop the labels....I see an object. It is present. I recognize a color. But that too is a label. Nothing really remains. Just a noticing of its presence. Everything else feels like labels. Color, size, thoughts appearing about its purpose. But without the labels...nothing. Just an object...and even that feels like a label...like it has to be a thing. Ooooh...separateness. When I recognize it sitting in front of me...it feels like I am here, it is there. "it" being a label too..and of course "I"?

[bth]

Hej! Sorry your post just cane through in my email. Wont happen again.

How can it be there an you are here? What is that you? If you yourself say that the I is a label. Is the image simply there together with thoughts, sensations, sounds .. Happening.


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[movement11]

Yes. I can feel it is all just happening.

[bth]

Oke! So can you confirm by looking. That the imaginary separation is created by thought? That basically the object in front is Is just as much part of experience as the thoughts, sensations, sounds, sights etc

Barry



Barry


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[movement11]

I have been looking at things. The trees, the clouds, my desk, etc. Trying to see them and look without labels. The labels still come up. But I can see there is no label without the thought. And although, I can conceptually know that it is not separate from me when there is no thought there....I can't say that I can SEE that it is not separate. It still looks separate. Because I CAN see it. I am looking at it. Finding it difficult to drop the fact that I am experiencing it in front of me and I am back here watching it. Doing my best to welcome and honor this frustration coming up as just a thought. Feel like I am making this too hard but really have no idea what success looks like.

[bth]

Labelling will keep on happening and is just as much part of experience as a sound.

Now what you are describing closely aligns with the post of that " me " ness. Before.

As an exsercise. Go into that sensation of me ness. Look at it. Experience it. Is there anything behind it? Or is there just the sensation plus thought " me ". Can it stick?

Further drop trying drop expectation. What is there to see if there is no I?


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[movement11]

Will do....

can you clarify

Further drop trying drop expectation.

for me? Not sure what you want me to do there.
Thanks for everything...;)

[bth]

It means that is not something you can "get" by trying. There is nothing to see ;). Just simple confirming, and looking what we are doing now, and youll do just fine.


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[movement11]

Go into that sensation of me ness. Look at it. Experience it. Is there anything behind it? Or is there just the sensation plus thought " me ". Can it stick?

Okay. So, I looked there. Directly looked at it. And it felt that the me-ness was the same as the cup. Not a "all is one beautiful type of experience" but just plain and simple. I kept asking "who is looking at the cup"...and I knew it was "me" and I knew that "me" was no different than the cup...."me" was on the outside with the cup. I guess "me" was an experience. I felt back behind it all. So, a question came up after that....where does the movement originate from. If "me" is a thought...can "me" make things move and happen. For example, I move my eyes from left to right. THAT is just happening with no intelligence behind it? Or is the thought of "me" creating another thought and action from the original thought.

Hope that makes sense. ;)

[bth]

Yes it makes sense. Does it matter if things happen either consious or unconsious? When is exactly that tipping point? Can you find it?

For example,

Place your hand in front of you. Turn it down and turn it up again. Look at that.. What is the exact moment you decide to turn. Can you find it? Or is that also just happening following by thought. During that process do you know what next your thought is going to be? Or is that also happening.

Barry


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[movement11]

Can't really find it. Very interesting to me. Feels like the body moves ...then thought appears. And if thought happens before the body moves...like I think "I need to send an email to this person" and then I open my email up and send it...that feels more forced in a way? Like a control mechanism is in place but all surrounded by thought. By the illusion of control. It is very subtle but it does not feel as natural. Life moves whether I think about it or not. I can see that. All of it is happening whether I insert the "in charge" me or not. That feels pretty nice.

[movement11]

Now, the question comes up about habit. I habitually do a lot of things. Is that just thought managed and repeated? But being in the space of ease and looking, would I do things the same as some of my habits? A habit is an experience of thought...thought that I have consciously hung on to. Habit almost feels fear based now. Again, that feeling of forcing it into what I think it should be.

[bth]

hej man!

Your well on your way, and i like the conversation im having with you.

What is comes down to is that your writing about "feels natural or not" and " habitually or not" is a story. A thought interpretation about reality which isnt to be seen. It cannot be noticed, it isnt real except as in the thought happening. To illustrate that:

As an exsercise:

1) Pick a hobby of yours. Be it whatever.
2) Close your eyes
3) Think about being the best at it, and imagine you just performed your best appearance, see people people cheering for you in a stadium, giving you hands afterwards etc
4) Open your eyes

Answer the following:

What is there when you open your eyes?
Do the thoughts about it stop immediately?
Do you for one moment question that you where dreaming.. that is was real?
What is the difference between that experience, and the experience you having about "feel natural", and "habitually"?

Barry