Ready but sceptical

[yuri2006]

Can you change these preferences, or life values?

Yes, I can, though slowly. My preferences both for life values and girls are not the same as 20 years ago, and also not the same as 10 years ago.

But what is it that makes you prefer blondes, or not?

Genetics, or perhaps some imprints from I don't no where. I mean, that (for example) I prefer European women to African, and I think this is impinted (preinstalled)). This is a part of my personality (self) :)

What exactly is the computer, (hardware and software) and who or what is the owner of the computer

There are 3 computers: body, mind and soul. Mind in my case is the main computer (hardware); software consists of different basic thoughts, partly preinstalled, partly acquired. Mind has characteristics, for example processing speed; these characteristics and thoughts make my personality (part of it, but let's put body and soul aside for now).

I don't really know who is the owner of this computer, but what I know that I'm identified with this computer. So I feel like I'm this computer.

[Ingen]

Your preferences change, but not because you make them change. They change with circumstances.

Genetics, or perhaps some imprints from I don't no where. I mean, that (for example) I prefer European women to African, and I think this is impinted (preinstalled)). This is a part of my personality (self)

Is you = character traits?

There are 3 computers: body, mind and soul. Mind in my case is the main computer (hardware); software consists of different basic thoughts, partly preinstalled, partly acquired. Mind has characteristics, for example processing speed; these characteristics and thoughts make my personality (part of it, but let's put body and soul aside for now).

This is wild. 3 computers for the mind, and how many for body and soul? That is many computers for one self !

I don't really know who is the owner of this computer, but what I know that I'm identified with this computer. So I feel like I'm this computer.

Hm. You are the computer (I'm confused. which one?) or are you identified with the computer (which would be an extra entity, identifying with the computer?)

You don't have to stick to the computer analogy! Maybe sensations, body, thoughts etc. is easier to use...

[yuri2006]

Your preferences change, but not because you make them change. They change with circumstances.

I don't agree. One case from my life. Because of stomach problem I had to eat food which I had never liked (like porridge, etc.). After 1 or 2 weeks I thought - what's the sense of eating the food I don't like - and changed my preferences; and in several days I already was tolerant towards this food, and later on liked it. I don't know how I did it, but it was done with intention, on purpose.

The same story with the food which I used to like but decided that it's not good to me; mostly I don't like it now.

I think this is the secret of happiness - to like (to be satisfied with) what you have (which does not prevent from desiring something else). It's written certainly in many books, but now I'm a bit closer to understanding this sentence than before.

[Ingen]

and changed my preferences; and in several days I already was tolerant towards this food, and later on liked it. I don't know how I did it, but it was done with intention, on purpose.

Of course ideas (e.g. that one food is healthier than the other) influence preferences. Ideas float from brain to brain and stick if they can. Not everybody manages to stick to a healthy diet, your brainwiring is fortunate.

I think this is the secret of happiness - to like (to be satisfied with) what you have (which does not prevent from desiring something else). It's written certainly in many books, but now I'm a bit closer to understanding this sentence than before.

This is so true. And if you manage, all is fine. Usually a thought gets in the way, and this thought contains an "I".

If you want to find out if it is real, look for it. Is there a self in your experience?

[yuri2006]

your brainwiring is fortunate

Not agree. This was done with intention, it's not the question of luck or fortune. When we can't make it - this is just lack of intention. The fact that I don't know how I did it - well, I also don't know how my stomack digests food, but it does somehow.

Usually a thought gets in the way, and this thought contains an "I".

Thought which contains an "I" gets in the way 2 times: first - before forming an intention, because the intention itself is derived from somewhere. 2nd - as you put - after the intention is formed.

Who applied this intention (after it was formed) - IMHO is not so important. The main question is where this intention comes from?

More general question is - do we have any choice (free will) in our lives? If yes (even if very small), then who is making this choice? For both question I don't see any other answers then "self = ego", where "self = body+mind+soul". If self does not exist, then our lives are predetermined 100% - nobody to make the choice.

Is there a self in your experience?

Let's return to the definition of the "self". The self = bundle of thoughts (or better say contains them). But just because self = thoughts, self is not becoming unreal, because thoughts are real. And certainly I have experience of thoughts, including I-thoughts.

This is like in a dream. When I wake up - I see that everything was unreal in this dream. But while in the dream - I feel the pain, the emotions - so everything is real. And in the dream I don't see that I'm dreaming.

[Ingen]

Not agree. This was done with intention, it's not the question of luck or fortune. When we can't make it - this is just lack of intention. The fact that I don't know how I did it - well, I also don't know how my stomack digests food, but it does somehow.

The intention gets the label "I" had the intention after it appears.

Thought which contains an "I" gets in the way 2 times: first - before forming an intention, because the intention itself is derived from somewhere

From somewhere, yes. Conditions, genes, circumstances.

Who applied this intention (after it was formed) - IMHO is not so important. The main question is where this intention comes from?

Well, we try to find out if there is a who. It'll be difficult to sort out all the sources of intention, but you can try.

If self does not exist, then our lives are predetermined 100% - nobody to make the choice.

I don't know if they are pretetemined. Is the course of clouds pretedetermined? Is the way a river takes, pretedermined?

But just because self = thoughts, self is not becoming unreal, because thoughts are real. And certainly I have experience of thoughts, including I-thoughts.

Thoughts are real, yes. And by appearing, they are conscious. An extra experiencer of thoughts is an unnecessary assumption.

And in the dream I don't see that I'm dreaming.

That's why the dream analogy is often not so helpful, unless it is. If you are aware that everything is an illusion being fabricated by the brain, that you don't have any possibility of knowing if there is an "outside" world - then the self gets dissolved together with everything else.

I would suggest you find out if there is any truth to this:

The self = bundle of thoughts (or better say contains them)

Is there REALLY a container of thoughts? Or is the thought: There is a self that contains thoughts also just a thought in the chain of appearing thoughts?

[yuri2006]

I don't know if they are pretetemined. Is the course of clouds pretedetermined? Is the way a river takes, pretedermined?

Clouds don't have free will as well as rivers, and no choice in life. If there is no ego/self, this means we don't have free will and no choice in life. This is just logical conclusion.

Is there REALLY a container of thoughts? Or is the thought: There is a self that contains thoughts also just a thought in the chain of appearing thoughts?

Yes, I agree that this a thought, but it's real. Just small correction - this thought is not in the chain of appearing thoughts, but before them and influences all other thoughts.

[Ingen]

Clouds don't have free will as well as rivers, and no choice in life. If there is no ego/self, this means we don't have free will and no choice in life. This is just logical conclusion.

Exactly. It is logical, it is proved by neuroscience, and it is also my experience. "Predetermined" sounds like somebody has made a plan for it, therefore I came with the river analogy. Things just happen, caused by circumstances, and we give them the label "decision" afterwards. If you observe closely, you can notice that in your own "decisions". Decide to say a sentence of your choice now, 50 times. Did you do it? How did you make the decision? How many times did you say it, before it got boring? How did you decide that?

Everything is caused by something else.

Is the thought: There is a self that contains thoughts also just a thought in the chain of appearing thoughts?

Yes, I agree that this a thought, but it's real. Just small correction - this thought is not in the chain of appearing thoughts, but before them and influences all other thoughts.

Could you clarify: what is real? That there is a container for thoughts?

And yes, this thought is a very basic belief, that influences all other thoughts. It was learned in a very young age, 2-3 years. Before, it wasn't there. Small children don't believe they are a self. They are one with the world.

[yuri2006]

Things just happen, caused by circumstances, and we give them the label "decision" afterwards. If you observe closely, you can notice that in your own "decisions".

1. The difference between us and clouds is that clouds also don't have desires, while we have.

2. If there is no choice, and things just happen - this means that we can do nothing about life, we don't have responsibility for our actions, and also there is no sense to try to do something.

3. Regarding saying sentence 50 times. Well, I'm saying much more when I'm doing japa, don't understand the point.

However, my experience is very different. I'm sure that my life is determined by choices I make, and that I shall put my intentions and efforts in what I do. Moreover, I'm absolutely sure that this is the sense of life itself - to make choices. Yes, any current moment is predetmined by my past actions/choices, but my choices of this moment will define what will happen in the future.

Dear Ingen, I would like to thank you for this dialogue, and I think it was useful to me, but I feel that we came to a point where there is no sense to go on. Too different approaches.

Love and respect

Yuri

[Ingen]

Dear Yuri,

you're welcome. I wish you all the best on your way.

Love

Ingen