Underlying bliss/peace - take me back/uncover again?

[Canfora]

Hi David!

But I still feel like this 'I' has free will/gets so caught up in thoughts as to not experience life fully. There is sense of frustration too. It almost feels like I need to be directed by a person (as in DYAD thing), as words are too often not written freely & are used to much to communicate. Also, I read & it doesn't always 'go in' as I feel a pressure to get 'it' again...

Would you say there is an I doing all this thinking?
If there is an I thinking, thoughts are being made and are controlled by this I... is this your experience?
Do you have any control of choice regarding what thoughts pop up?
Are you creating thoughts?
Can you stop thinking if you want to?

I am on golf break tomorrow til Sunday (life of luxury eh!) but will check in once a day at least - probably be good to & when meditate away from group etc

Sounds like fun, enjoy!

Take care,
S

[Thisisit]

[quote]Would you say there is an I doing all this thinking?
If there is an I thinking, thoughts are being made and are controlled by this I... is this your experience?
Do you have any control of choice regarding what thoughts pop up?
Are you creating thoughts?
Can you stop thinking if you want to?/quote]

There is no I doing all this thinking. But there does seem like there is some control of what is thought if I say think of a person or say a banana, that feels like deliberate creation of thoughts? There is no control at all over what thoughts pop up though at any given time aside from that. Although doing meditation or something I really enjoy can reduce the frequency of thoughts, so that feels like some control?

[Canfora]

But there does seem like there is some control of what is thought if I say think of a person or say a banana, that feels like deliberate creation of thoughts?

Other than an idea stating that thoughts can be created, what evidences do you see that thoughts can be deliberately created? Do you experience thoughts being created from stratch? Or are they simply appearing?

Can a thought think? Can a thought do something? What can the thought banana do?

[Thisisit]

Other than an idea stating that thoughts can be created, what evidences do you see that thoughts can be deliberately created? Do you experience thoughts being created from stratch? Or are they simply appearing?

But they feel like they can be created sometimes? No thought is created from scratch though. The mind creates them. And yes they are just appearing...

Can a thought think? Can a thought do something? What can the thought banana do?

Hi Sandra,

A thought cannot think. It is just a thought. The thought banana can't do anything. But thoughts can change emotions?

Aside from the above, had a period last night really felt like things started to fall away. A lightness. That there was no I. No self. Just happening & all outside this illusionary controller...but still answering like above now!

Also, thankyou for spending time on this with me again :-)

[Canfora]

Thank you for the thank you David :-)

The mind creates them.

Are you sure that there is a thing called mind creating thoughts? Or is this an idea about what is going on?
What do you think the mind is? How do you know mind exists?
Can you find any evidences of a mind creating thoughts?
What does the concept mind point to in your experience?

Aside from the above, had a period last night really felt like things started to fall away. A lightness. That there was no I. No self. Just happening & all outside this illusionary controller...but still answering like above now!

Do you mean you still want to know why things are like they are? LU has some resources for further exploration. At the moment try to focus only on this exploration to find a separate David, an entity that is you. You saw that there isn't a self separate from life, inside the body, thinking thoughts. Is this clear?

At the moment what seems to be a self, what makes you think a self exists here and now?

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra,

[Quote]
Are you sure that there is a thing called mind creating thoughts? Or is this an idea about what is going on?
What do you think the mind is? How do you know mind exists?
Can you find any evidences of a mind creating thoughts?
What does the concept mind point to in your experience?/quote]

It could be just another label, but what are thoughts and why do they happen? The concept of this mind is the brain functioning with thoughts, noticing the 5 senses and observations? There is no real evidence of a mind creating thoughts. It feels like it doesn't matter discussing it almost as it's not tangible.

[quote]You saw that there isn't a self separate from life, inside the body, thinking thoughts. Is this clear?

At the moment what seems to be a self, what makes you think a self exists here and now?/quote]

Yes this was 'seen'. It feels quite clear & today also. It's a label. Like everything else. This is still important though especially when communicating about things such as trees, birds & David. Should there be any influence from events to change this perception though as it still does not feel 100% concrete? Especially with 'others' not seeing this. This should not matter...

[Canfora]

Should there be any influence from events to change this perception though as it still does not feel 100% concrete?

What needs to change so that you will feel 100% sure the self is an illusion?
Do you have the expectation that thoughts about a self and behaving the same way as before will stop suddenly? Can you control what is going on now?

[Thisisit]

What needs to change so that you will feel 100% sure the self is an illusion?
Do you have the expectation that thoughts about a self and behaving the same way as before will stop suddenly? Can you control what is going on now?

Hi Sandra,

Sorry I couldn't reply on last day of the golf break. Hope 'you' are well :-)

Nothing. This is the truth, but there is so much conditioning to act like there is a self & although it is impossible to ever forget there is not, there can still be a pull back to acting like there is one? It is ridiculous though! There is still also an expectation that there will increasingly be a reduction of emotions such as fear, anger & unnecessary thoughts & that things will become lighter & easier- following the realisation of the removal of all the layers outside the truth of non-deal reality. This was certainly true at the weekend for instance & the lack of control & perfection of our nature of simple second-to-second presentness etc. 'I' cannot control what is going on as everything is going on & there is no I. This is one consciousness.

[Canfora]

Hi David!

Sorry I couldn't reply on last day of the golf break. Hope 'you' are well :-)

That's okay!

Can you have a look to the way things happen and give me some examples of stuff that give you certainty that the separate self is an illusion? What do you see going on? What changes with this seeing - if anything?

Thank you,
S

[Thisisit]

Can you have a look to the way things happen and give me some examples of stuff that give you certainty that the separate self is an illusion? What do you see going on? What changes with this seeing - if anything?

It just is that way it is. The stuff that gives me certainty is the awakening moments already had to see directly without being pointed, but now just that it is blatantly obvious & conceptualising things is not necessary & it's almost impossible to articulate. But simple at the same time - life is just happening, everywhere, as one thing...Nothing directly changes with seeing.

One thing that I had continued to conceptualise was the process of 'loving another individual self'? (marriage/life partner etc) I assume that happens naturally as nature/life/universe (or however defined) is the driver itself, rather than any 'selfs'?

[Thisisit]

Also, there is still some (but less when round them) worries about how 'I' am & what people think of 'me' etc etc which is strange?

[Canfora]

Seeing that the self is an illusion is only a beginning, there may be more to explore after the gate. There are some groups that were created to help investigate these subjects that you're starting to ponder.

Let's keep checking if there is something unclear regarding the self illusion. Can you please answer the questions below looking at your experience, David? Take your time with them, no need to rush. If any of these questions causes doubts let me know and we will look closer to what is causing the doubts.

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate you?

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra,

The only doubt arises from the doubting thoughts in general (questioning nature/truth) that have arisen over the years & led me to this point/made me question this assumed reality & perception of an 'I' which has been an illusion. There is a concern 'losing (my) mind'/definition others adhere to, which may distance 'myself' from others at times, especially if I grab hold of this 'I' again. It is clear that some huge never-ending moment-to-moment peace/bliss is going to occur, so there will still be continuing shifts etc & maybe its an unravelling...

Have you been able to find, a ‘you’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No, never. But am so used to this 'you' concept. It is obvious this is why it is hard to ever define a self (for example on a dating website at the moment!) .

Or a you that is the doer, or can control what happens?

There is no control. However, for pure honesty, it feels like if one says 'jump in 3 seconds' there is some control. But no proof of an 'I' doing this.

Or a you that ‘makes’ decisions?

As far as can be seen, only the past cumulative experiences/conditioning causes decisions combined the essence of nature/unexplainable.

Or a you who ‘does the thinking’?

No. Thoughts are just thoughts.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Yes, clearly now. But this body/'me' still feels like a worthily nameable vessel to communicate about with other people. There is a concern about dealing with people with huge 'ego's for example.

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘you’?

No. although it feels like focus can be directed to individual senses, away from thoughts - e.g. really taste the food, or guided meditation body scan? But this is just directing sensation & doesn't prove a 'me' is doing this.

Is there a you ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No. 'Individual personality' seems an area of confusion - the assumption being this is just underlying nature & not a 'me'. Everything is ever changing and there is only now.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘you’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

There is still some lack of clarity, but it is hard to pinpoint why/about what. For example, if I am in a public place, it feels like there is an ego/self-consciousness illusion/thoughts about this '37 year old man' & other people's perceptions of 'him'.

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of a separate you?

This has already be seen. It is clear that this continues without the illusionary concept of 'I' though.

[Canfora]

Hi David!

Reading your answers I get the idea that you see and still have doubts. Are the doubts related with the seeing of the separate self illusion or with the implications of that seeing? Do you think you are ready for LU 6 final questions or is there something that you would like to look closer?

Take care,
S

[Thisisit]

Reading your answers I get the idea that you see and still have doubts. Are the doubts related with the seeing of the separate self illusion or with the implications of that seeing? Do you think you are ready for LU 6 final questions or is there something that you would like to look closer?

Hi Sandra

There are doubts about the wordings moreso (sometimes it feels it maybe simpler than words/this brain maybe cannot ), but maybe this is part of the reality of awareness of the lack of 'I'. Awareness has always been there, but academically there can struggle re words/getting top grades in a scholarly/societal manner! (for example, a ranger friend in Africa calls David 'hyper-intelligent' & he has an awareness of reality) The epiphany moment is EXACTLY one of the pages on your app by the way that have looked through ad hoc & am at 'gate' stage also, interestingly - the one starting 'If you can find a park...' & talking about the wiggles/movement as one thing that presented itself so clearly in this awakening, completely without searching for/desiring/even knowing about conceptually.

Also, there is a possibility that 'I' will never experience a similar experience of this underlying bliss/peace state that this thread started in its title - that may have simply been the awakening to reality presenting itself with a big 'POW'. Maybe I am simply on this forum to be pointed/discuss the perception shift with others in order to continue 'after-gate'.

Questions such as: What if any meditation is best? Defining love for one other person only (life partner)? Dealing with extremely egotistical people, talking to others about 'this/it', not allowing the sense of no control to fall into disinclination for exertion!, finding it hard to work with such an object-orientated world (there has been a sense at watching/simply being aware of things rather than labelling for some time now - e.g etc). Also, how badly have fallen out with sister all of a sudden, as we speak on very deep level about life/keeps referring to this 'past me' that is not 'me' right now...

Can you let me know if any of the above seems like doubt or simply valid discussion points post-gate?

Also, there is still conceptualising (primarily in a way to articulate to others what is understood)? This is all that has been there most likely - apart from a fear of falling back into 'self illusion' mode permanently.

Sorry for waffling a bit!
Ps: There is a REAL sense to start reconstructing sentences without 'I' as much, not for effect/cause read things, but just because...

D xx