Underlying bliss/peace - take me back/uncover again?

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra.

On nature retreat fir 5 days but gonna check in just once a day to continue this even though no phone rest of time. Here's my list of experiences and thoughts:

1) Foot on rough carpet E
2) Just in boxer shorts E (sight)
3) Now know you gonna read that!  T
4) Hear people talking E
5) What am I? T
6) Thought above as group sharing at retreat T
7) Aeroplane E
8) In bell tent E
9) I like bell tents T
10) It's dark E
11) Physical darkness can sometimes create darkness of mood, but I like the quiet T
12) Howling trees E
13) I'm writing T
14) Why am I doing this kinda thing? T
15) Thought of you & Nina at LU T
16) Thoughts of family members T
17) Shadows on body in lamp light E
18) Probably been over 2 minutes now maybe 3 T

Thanks,

David x

[Canfora]

Hi David!

Thank you for taking the time to check in, in the middle of a retreat. You did great with the E/T exercise!

I would like you to sit quietly and look around you... spend some minutes simply seeing, listening, touching, tasting, smelling.

After being grounded in this aliveness that is always on, have a closer look (and by "have a look" I mean simply keep looking around you, checking what is going on, what is there, what is being sensed) and see if a you is present somewhere.

What comes up if you try to find this you, an I, David? Make a little list of what happens, of what is being experienced and thought, and after writing the list, add either "E" or "T" after each item on the list.

Have fun :)

Take care,
Sandra

[Thisisit]

1) There is this body E
2) Can't quite find this I E?/T?
3) Frustration T
4) Loneliness T
5) Is a tree an 'I'? T
6) Stillness in air/trees
7) Me is David? What is personality then if no 'I'? T
8) Does any other being think of 'I'?
9) Am I not in any control. Am choosing to discuss this?
10) Intellectuallising again and theorising! T
11) Looking for epiphany moment, Already seen though T
12) All this talking in my head is crazy! T
13) Fear no I means depoersonalisatij and coldness T
14) Itchy head E
15) Owl hoot E
16) Path pretty pastel coloured leaves E
17) Desire to be clever with all this No I stuff & show people T
18) What does I look.like?? T
19) Getting somewhere? T
20) A mind is not an I? T
21) Midges on me! E

[Canfora]

That's a nice list of thoughts and sensations.

Notice how in

• 3) Frustration T
  4) Loneliness T

you were probability labeling a mix of sensations.

Did you found a me?
If you did, where is this me experienced?

[Thisisit]

That's a nice list of thoughts and sensations.

Did you found a me?
If you did, where is this me experienced?

Hi Sandra,

Bit more difficult to reply at mo on retreat. Just in case I don't respond as quickly!

Today we did a whole day in wilderness alone. My sole intention as was part of thing to do to have one, was to find this 'I'/me. I did not find this me. I noticed when I asked where is this 'I' my mind goes quite blank and feel some resistance. Been in bit of pain today (long story!) so bit harder to focus. I suppose I partly feel this Me is my body and mind in its entirety? But to physically place a 'me' I think my view would have been a controller behind my eyes. Feel bit confused if honest. Totally know there is no I, but don't behave like it most of the time

[Canfora]

Hey David!

Bit more difficult to reply at mo on retreat. Just in case I don't respond as quickly!

That's okay.

Today we did a whole day in wilderness alone. My sole intention as was part of thing to do to have one, was to find this 'I'/me. I did not find this me.

When in the middle of nature, wilderness, check if you can find any boundaries between a me that is inside the body and a world outside. Check if you are in any way separate of what surrounds you.

In other words, aren't you nature also? Is separation findable? Are boundaries real?

I noticed when I asked where is this 'I' my mind goes quite blank and feel some resistance.

Feeling resistance when doing this inquiry is normal and to be expected. Don't try to avoid it, be curious. If / when it happens, look to what is causing the resistance. What's behind it? Is a you there, causing and experiencing the resistance or is the resistance being experienced without a experiencer behind it?

Been in bit of pain today (long story!) so bit harder to focus.

Hope you're feeling better!

I suppose I partly feel this Me is my body and mind in its entirety?

I would say a body is a body (flesh, bones, muscles, etc) and "mind" is a convenient label that points to thoughts happening one at a time.

But to physically place a 'me' I think my view would have been a controller behind my eyes.

Like this?

I love this image :)

Yes, it can feel like if there is someone behind the eyes. But is this true? Do you experience this controller or a focus of attention in that area + sensations + thoughts about being a controller behind the eyes? If you find an entity there, describe it to me.

Feel bit confused if honest.

That's okay.

Totally know there is no I, but don't behave like it most of the time

Are you saying behavior is different when you know there is no I?
Can you give me an example of what changes in your behavior when you know there is no I?

Take care,
S

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra,

Many apologies for not replying til now, but was at Into the Wild festival & no phone. Will get back to at least responding once a day again, as recommended from now :-)

When in the middle of nature, wilderness, check if you can find any boundaries between a me that is inside the body and a world outside. Check if you are in any way separate of what surrounds you.

In other words, aren't you nature also? Is separation findable? Are boundaries real?

One the nature retreat, I had moments where I felt like I was all the people there. I brokje down discussing the beauty of things just happening (had in small periods). Had smaller moments of 'no separation' & oneness

Feeling resistance when doing this inquiry is normal and to be expected. Don't try to avoid it, be curious. If / when it happens, look to what is causing the resistance. What's behind it? Is a you there, causing and experiencing the resistance or is the resistance being experienced without a experience behind it?

The resistance is my mental conditioning of believing in this 'self'. I made some real progress at Into the Wild in relation to this 'Enlightenment Intensive' - 8 5 minute slots with another person being asked 'Tell me who you are'. I was distracted for the first 5 mins, but by the 2nd-4th ones I reached a super-deep level of being & honesty about how I continue to conceptualise things all the time, but have struggled accepting it. I had a very very heavy panic-feeling in my arms that reminded me of 'night terror's my siblings & I had as youngsters & only a couple of times since in therapy, when very deep etc. I explained this to the woman and was entirely honest about all things. Saying I was feeling very close to 'It' & the awareness of 'no self'. In fact, I wonder whether I have accepted this already, but am shifting around or something with things? I would consdier doing the enlightenment intensive, as it really felt like the way I've always wanted to communicate, for as long as I remember (no 'societally influenced' expressions, just being)? I think the resistance is possibly the 'final throws' of this illusion of 'I'...

Yes, it can feel like if there is someone behind the eyes. But is this true? Do you experience this controller or a focus of attention in that area + sensations + thoughts about being a controller behind the eyes? If you find an entity there, describe it to me.

I only experience a 'feeling' there is someone at the controls. I know this is not true. There is no entity, just thoughts. Interestingly, I met Jonny Baker at a 'Rocketship Enlightenment' session & spoke with him after for 20 mins of 100% honest chat about things. Doing this 'write down 60 seconds of what you think you will think', led me into a full minute of peace & no thoughts - his partner who was randomly next to me said 'it was on the path to enlightenment' & was guided by you on here randomly too, as briefly mentioned LU & kept things simple about it all, as trying to focus on direct experience. I saw a small dot for the first time whilst closing my eyes after, like a light to look at & feel this was triggered by connecting with this session - its quite beautiful in that looking at it makes it really conducive for 'no thoughts' & a real peace & made me really smile.

I have since realised & discussed completely honestly at the DYAD workshop, I have this 'ego' attached to 'being enlightened' or about this awakening. It is holding things back & partly consists of me judging others & being frustrated by them (& my own resistance), when I know the lack of 'I' means the complete opposite as have known. I also have spent too much time talking about it & should not talk about it with family & friends at all, probably. I talked this out in front of lady at dyad session.

Are you saying behavior is different when you know there is no I?
Can you give me an example of what changes in your behavior when you know there is no I?

There is simply a freedom. My 'perception' of reality is what is different. There was a freedom to my behaviour today & a release of tension related to my experiences at Into the Wild & a reduction in thoughts. A change in behaviour would be for example, a joy at walking (I sometimes wiggle my fingers when I walk'. Just letting things happen & not searching/walking around aimlessly or 'trying to create something'. Also, I kind of summed up this 'lack of self' by saying how I would take immense pleasure & peace in clearing up peoples cigarrette butts in Africa when no one would know or see. Simply because. Simply because there is an order to the universe & it is possible to be 'selfess' (not simply related to what people 'think' is selfless, but really probably isn't). Selflessness is our natural state & it is so beautiful & peaceful to be this present in every moment & fully alive in its ordinariness & even that bliss I started this thread with in relation to the natural perfection of it all.

Sorry, if I have written a lot today & hope it is not coming across as waffling, but haven't responded for a few days!

[Canfora]

Hi David!

Many apologies for not replying til now, but was at Into the Wild festival & no phone. Will get back to at least responding once a day again, as recommended from now :-)

Good :)

It seems to me that you think some experiences are more "enlightened" than others? There is this experience going on right now. Isn't this here and now experience the only thing going on? What makes you think that things like permanent states, enlightenment, no thoughts, eternal bliss, wait for you in a imaginary future? Can you escape this always now experience?

Take care,
S

[Thisisit]

It seems to me that you think some experiences are more "enlightened" than others?

No, I don't mean that. It is simply that it is possible to not attach to all these random thoughts & associated feelings & be entirely present with the body & mind & watch things unfolding. Nature's order. Difficult to explain...

Isn't this here and now experience the only thing going on?

Exactly what was trying to explain above. There is a feeling that trying to explain things to you or anyone, conceptualise & confirm this, is the root of the problem here!

What makes you think that things like permanent states, enlightenment, no thoughts, eternal bliss, wait for you in a imaginary future?

I don't believe in permanent states as everything is in flux, just that the removal of 'self' & present moment awareness is all we have control to sense. Eternal bliss is not something I'm searching for either. But an awareness of the simplicity of reality, the layers of conditioning stripped down etc, does provide the ability to experience bliss at times, as part of a still constantly changing & impossible to grasp 'now'.

Can you escape this always now experience?

Wow, never thought about 'escaping' the always now. Even when feeling peace/bliss or suffering it is always now & even if thinking about the past or future. It is always still now. Hmmmm. This actually fills me with a somewhat frozen feeling & an equal level of fear & the word 'trust', which I often write down in relation to all this. Why do I feel the need to break 'myself' down to obtain this freedom - because of a lifetime of attachment to thoughts etc? It felt so liberating to be 'true to life/reality' at that DYAD thing.

[Canfora]

It felt so liberating to be 'true to life/reality' at that DYAD thing.

When there is fear, what is happening isn't also what is true at the moment?
I understand having preferences and wanting things to be a certain way... but does the story of "how things should be" change what is going on now? Do the fear and the resistance disappear if you try to avoid them? Or do they come and go like everything else? What needs to be protected? Is it the body, the thoughts, the sensations? Without a story that the fear belongs to you, is feeling the fear okay right now, can the unpleasant sensations be welcomed and explored with curiosity? Is there anything connecting emotions, sensations, body - something that is an I, a real separate entity that is present and separated from all the rest?

Have a look. Can you observe a you? touch a you? smell a you? what is this you that wants liberation? is it true that there is a you that isn't liberated? how do you know this you is here, here in reality?

[Thisisit]

When there is fear, what is happening isn't also what is true at the moment?

Yes, it is painful & hard to differentiate from ruminating over thoughts & often ends in a blankness/switching off, or attempt to 'engage' in the feeling & cry cathartically for a release or even smile/laugh at it all.

but does the story of "how things should be" change what is going on now?

Yes, it makes life harder.

Do the fear and the resistance disappear if you try to avoid them?

The fear can be removed by distraction.

What needs to be protected? Is it the body, the thoughts, the sensations?

Hilariously, the concern of 'losing my mind'. The worry is not functioning on the 'normal' human level of interaction etc. I just had to speak to someone on the phone & it was difficult to communicate, after reading & thinking about this for example. Also, I suppose a concern is the lack of attachment to 'I' could result in putting my body/mind in situations that increase suffering or relating to primary self-care, if I don't protect this 'I'?

Without a story that the fear belongs to you, is feeling the fear okay right now, can the unpleasant sensations be welcomed and explored with curiosity?

Yes, this is true. The concern is that I believe my 'spectrum of feeling' is larger than the average human being by a fairly noticeable extent. 'I' feel a bit lost right now for example & disengaged, which is resulting in procrastination today...

Is there anything connecting emotions, sensations, body - something that is an I, a real separate entity that is present and separated from all the rest?

No, its just a combination of these senses that we define as 'I'.

Have a look. Can you observe a you? touch a you? smell a you? what is this you that wants liberation? is it true that there is a you that isn't liberated? how do you know this you is here, here in reality?

No I can't. I can see, touch & smell this body. There is a sense of frustration & anger at the time I spend going over things in my mind & even this now. Although it will pass. Yesterday this was not present at all for example, it felt more like the REASON I do these things is BECAUSE there is a deep understanding of reality.

[Canfora]

Thank you for your answers, David!

Hilariously, the concern of 'losing my mind'. The worry is not functioning on the 'normal' human level of interaction etc. I just had to speak to someone on the phone & it was difficult to communicate, after reading & thinking about this for example. Also, I suppose a concern is the lack of attachment to 'I' could result in putting my body/mind in situations that increase suffering or relating to primary self-care, if I don't protect this 'I'?

It's normal to have strong reactions while doing this inquiry (and NOT having is normal too). You are getting familiar with what may seem unknown territory. It's okay to feel shaken by what is being experienced! What is causing some fear is mainly a story of what may happen? Other than that, are you okay? Spend some time noticing what surrounds you. Is this moment okay as it is? Could this moment be any different?

Would you say right now there is reality and then there is you?
That you are inside a body, experiencing an outside world?
It may seem that this is what is happening but try to find the boundaries, the separation, between "you" and "not you". Where do you start and end, where does an outside world start and end? To where would you point if you where trying to prove the existence of boundaries?

Try doing this little exploration first with your eyes closed and focus in a specific location (maybe the place where your butt meets the chair...). Then try with your eyes open and looking from a window. Or while you are walking in the street. Do you experience borders anywhere? If you do, let me know how do you know this separation is real.

Let me know how it goes.

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra,

What is causing some fear is mainly a story of what may happen? Other than that, are you okay? Spend some time noticing what surrounds you. Is this moment okay as it is? Could this moment be any different?

Yes, probably a fear of losing touch with people/their 'reality' & causing situations such as the fall out between myself & my sister? I am ok apart from that yes, feel a certain slight removal of lack of confidence about what am gradually accepting/understanding, whilst going about my day. This moment is ok yes. In fact, when I look at it properly, it is perfect, I suppose. Just is. Only my perception of this moment could be different maybe, or if I was lost in thought, I would be experiencing it less?

Would you say right now there is reality and then there is you?
That you are inside a body, experiencing an outside world?

There is simply reality. One thing I am starting to feel is when I see older photos of 'me', I don't quite feel attached to this 'I'', kinda in a funny way that makes me smile. Like it seems a bit of a weird thing to do maybe?! Way less attached to that & concentrating on the present moment, as it is the only 'reality'.

Where do you start and end, where does an outside world start and end? To where would you point if you where trying to prove the existence of boundaries?

I suppose the assumption was that the outside world starts where this physical body ends (outer skin etc). This 'I' is called David & is an entity - am also confused by how it is possible to like and dislike certain people - or is that nothing to do with the illusion of an 'I' or 'him/her'? Or how if there is no 'I', how there are individual 'personalities' etc?

Try doing this little exploration first with your eyes closed and focus in a specific location (maybe the place where your butt meets the chair...). Then try with your eyes open and looking from a window. Or while you are walking in the street. Do you experience borders anywhere? If you do, let me know how do you know this separation is real.

My mind is saying that the separation is where the skin is touching the chair? I recall the times where I felt everything was seemless/interconnected/one, but at the moment feel the outside of the physical body is the boundary between 'me' & the outside world. Actually, this body is just PART of the world/universe.

[Canfora]

My mind is saying that the separation is where the skin is touching the chair?

Have a look to what feels to be a boundary. Then describe how do you know you've found a boundary.
Don't rely on thoughts, check your immediate experience.

Can you see, touch, hear any division between you and life? Do you experience skin as a border? Are you an entity inside the body? How and where is this entity experienced? Don't think - look to what is here.

[Thisisit]

Hi Sandra,

Have a look to what feels to be a boundary. Then describe how do you know you've found a boundary.
Don't rely on thoughts, check your immediate experience.

There is no boundary between this me & life itself. This is clear, as we are all one happening. But I still feel like this 'I' has free will/gets so caught up in thoughts as to not experience life fully. There is sense of frustration too. It almost feels like I need to be directed by a person (as in DYAD thing), as words are too often not written freely & are used to much to communicate. Also, I read & it doesn't always 'go in' as I feel a pressure to get 'it' again...

Can you see, touch, hear any division between you and life? Do you experience skin as a border? Are you an entity inside the body? How and where is this entity experienced? Don't think - look to what is here.

There is no division between me & life. But there is this body? As a human being, I have this mind saying I am not just growing like a tree, or moving via pure instinct like an antelope. That this brain is more powerful or something. I am conceptualising again, sorry - endlessly trying to sum it up for the layman or be definitive in the definition of self/no self! It's quite tiring. 'I' have to feel this, no ideas of concepts that I grasp momentarily will do. My direct experience is:

Seeing my arms feels like the border between David & the 'rest' of life/the universe. But also understand (not direct experience!) that all things such as the sun/oxygen/water etc. are all constantly ebbing & flowing & happening in combination with this 'entity' & not separately - just like a big mixing pot. I cannot hear & not sure about touch as I can touch & feel this desk & that feels separate as my hand knocks against it. I would say this entity is the combination of this body/mind? Not an entity inside the body, no. That now seems ridiculous, even though I am so conditioned to think this. It is hard to just 'experience'...I'm 'trying'...but it keeps going back to thought! If I procrastinate for example, it feels like this is not 'the universe just happening' for some reason (animals/plants do not do this). And that I would not do this, if I had no sense of self/was fully aware.

Sight - see this body, but that does not mean separation, everything is interconnected
Hearing - hear the 'outside world' & this almost implies no separation
Touch - are we saying there are no direct objects? like a desk, a car etc. Just a label?

My mind has started to go blank, sorry...

Ps: I am on golf break tomorrow til Sunday (life of luxury eh!) but will check in once a day at least - probably be good to & when meditate away from group etc