Anyone want to take a look?

[neeeel]

Anyone ready to take a look at all this, post here!

[neeeel]

bump

[xae214d5]

Hi neeeel I'd like to have a dialogue with you, if that's ok. I want to be liberated, you have that kind of power? :]

[neeeel]

Hi.
Although its nice for me to imagine that I can wander round and hit people with the liberation stick and BAM, they are liberated, its not really like that. All I do is point, and whether you see it or not is down to you really.

So, could you start by saying what brought you here, and what expectations you have, what you hope to get out of the process, what you expect to happen etc?

thanks

[xae214d5]

Hi, thanks for the message.

As far as the problem of self goes, my background is philosophy - I used to read about things like dualism vs monism, the mind-body problem, etc. I've also read about the enlightenment itself, and it seemed like attaining enlightenment would solve these problems for me, as in figuring out the relationship between the mind and the body, or between the non-physical world and the physical.

I got to this forum after reading Ruthless Truth.com, and my understanding is that I may become liberated by having a certain kind of dialogue. I understand intellectually that it makes sense for "me" to not exist, if the experience is all there is. However, I haven't been able to obtain any profound insight out of that, and I suppose that's what I'm after.

Hope that's enough info to get started.. cheers

[neeeel]

Hi, thanks for the message.

As far as the problem of self goes, my background is philosophy - I used to read about things like dualism vs monism, the mind-body problem, etc. I've also read about the enlightenment itself, and it seemed like attaining enlightenment would solve these problems for me, as in figuring out the relationship between the mind and the body, or between the non-physical world and the physical.

I got to this forum after reading Ruthless Truth.com, and my understanding is that I may become liberated by having a certain kind of dialogue. I understand intellectually that it makes sense for "me" to not exist, if the experience is all there is. However, I haven't been able to obtain any profound insight out of that, and I suppose that's what I'm after.

Hope that's enough info to get started.. cheers

Hey, thanks for the reply
I would like to start by saying that this is not enlightenment. It is not a one off pill that you swallow and everything is bliss and nirvana from now on. It is simply the seeing, the recognition, that something that you have believed your whole life, isnt true. After seeing it, there will (most likely) still be suffering, still be anger, still be identification, . It is not the end of the road, it is the beginning of something else.

If this is not what you are looking for, thats ok. If it is something you are interested in then we can continue.

[xae214d5]

Yes, that's what I've read and I'm totally fine with that. I suppose the word "enlightenment" can be misleading sometimes - what you describe is what I'm after so please continue

[neeeel]

ok, so what do you mean by self? What is it, what does the self do? Who are you?

[xae214d5]

Self is the observer - the seer and the hearer. What I perceive to be reality, it's the self that perceives.

[neeeel]

anything else? Are you the one that thinks the thoughts? Are you the one that makes decisions?

Remember, I dont care about "correct" answers, or what you have read somewhere else. Just answer from your own experience. Give me as much as you can about what the self is, what it does, what it controls, and also what it doesnt do

[xae214d5]

Yes, I think the thoughts and make the decisions. This morning I decided to take my time going to the meeting, and walk in a relaxed way, because I thought I didn't need to attend the first part of the meeting.

I think I have control over my actions, like what I say in response to your post. I think what I'm saying is original in a sense, that I'm laying out my own thoughts.

On the other hand, I don't have control over some other things, such as my heart beating, going to sleep when I'm exhausted, or turning around when someone hits me in the head. Also I don't have control over things like the Earth spinning or the ball falling down when it's released

[neeeel]

Yes, I think the thoughts and make the decisions. This morning I decided to take my time going to the meeting, and walk in a relaxed way, because I thought I didn't need to attend the first part of the meeting.

I think I have control over my actions, like what I say in response to your post. I think what I'm saying is original in a sense, that I'm laying out my own thoughts.

On the other hand, I don't have control over some other things, such as my heart beating, going to sleep when I'm exhausted, or turning around when someone hits me in the head. Also I don't have control over things like the Earth spinning or the ball falling down when it's released

ok, cool. I have 2 things to try out.

1) raise your arm above your head. How did you do that? look at your direct experience, and try to see how raising the arm was achieved? Was there a you that was in control, and knew which muscles to expand or contract in the correct sequence? Was there a thought of "raise arm" followed by raising the arm? spend a while watching how it happens, and what thoughts and sensations occur while doing it.

2) You say you dont have control over other things. Are there things which you sometimes have control over, and sometimes dont? Where is the line drawn? is there common factor in things you do have control over, and things that you dont ? Observe your direct experience of things you have control of, and report what you notice.

A note of advice, I am not asking you to think about this, to ponder , or to use logic to come up with answers. You need to directly observe what is going on, in you and in the world.

[xae214d5]

Ok, my experience was like this:

1) when I raised my arm, it was as if I "willed" my arm to raise itself, and it did. Kind of like issuing a command, non-verbally. No, I wasn't aware of the individual muscles. I guess that may have been due to my lack of knowledge of the human anatomy.

2) Yes, there are things I sometimes have control over, sometimes not. The line seems arbitrary, as in not being a on-off switch, but more of a matter of degree. When I'm nervous, for example, I say things I wouldn't have under normal circumstances. Or if I was feeling cold, I might not be able to pay attention to, say, people around me because I'd be caught up with my physiological conditions. To me, it seems like a matter of distributing attention, so that when I pay attention to A, I'm unable to pay attention to B and don't have control over it, etc.

Yes, I understand about the direct exeprience thing, I tried to observe directly without using logic. When I write I have to use logic to describe my experience in a coherent manner, tho

[neeeel]

Ok, my experience was like this:

1) when I raised my arm, it was as if I "willed" my arm to raise itself, and it did. Kind of like issuing a command, non-verbally. No, I wasn't aware of the individual muscles. I guess that may have been due to my lack of knowledge of the human anatomy.

How did you will the arm to raise? Was there thought of arm raising, followed by the arm being raised? Did you actively control the body to do it? This is what I was getting at with the point about the muscles. A baby , a cat, doesnt have a knowledge of anatomy, but they move just fine. Do you control all your muscles in the correct order? If you were doing it, then surely you would have to know how you were doing it? Spend some more time looking at this

2) Yes, there are things I sometimes have control over, sometimes not. The line seems arbitrary, as in not being a on-off switch, but more of a matter of degree. When I'm nervous, for example, I say things I wouldn't have under normal circumstances. Or if I was feeling cold, I might not be able to pay attention to, say, people around me because I'd be caught up with my physiological conditions. To me, it seems like a matter of distributing attention, so that when I pay attention to A, I'm unable to pay attention to B and don't have control over it, etc.

Ok, look deeper. Is the common factor when you feel that you are controlling things, the fact that your attention is on them? Is it that there are thoughts about "i am doing this" or "I am going to do that"? And when you are not doing the controlling, it just happens?
Next time you go for a walk, notice how sometimes you will be thinking about walking and where to go, other times you will walk along and suddenly realise that you have arrived and not given attention to whole chunks of the journey. Or any activity, notice how sometimes you are there, present and in control, and sometimes you arent. What is the difference?

Yes, I understand about the direct exeprience thing, I tried to observe directly without using logic. When I write I have to use logic to describe my experience in a coherent manner, tho

I understand that logic and concepts need to be used to express anything in language.

[xae214d5]

1) When I willed my arm to raise, first I had the thought of raising it, and the rest seemed automatic. So, the way it seemed to me is that, it was my self having the thought, and the rest happened without the self being invovled as an active participant (it was only an observer). I'll post again if I notice any changes.

2) That's a good point, because sometimes I pay attention to something (e.g. shivering) and it still happens automatically. So yes, having a thought like "I am doing this" seems to be common to the things I have control over.

Regarding walking and other activities, it's the same - having the thought of doing it seems to be the common denominator. So it's like, if I think I'm doing it, I seem to have control over it - if I don't have the thought of doing it, I don't have control over it.

Am I on the right track?