Need help seeing through the illusion

[mikeymike]

So i think that the conditioned network of thoughts with "I" in it is causing the problems.

But since I am not the conditioned network of thoughts... the thoughts are not my problems :O

Feeling light and I feel relieved right now.. something is happening..

[QuantSelfLaFont]

The resistance against the "bad" thoughts causes frustration.

Question: Through what mechanism are thoughts deemed to be "bad" or "good"? Who is doing that?

[mikeymike]

Question: Through what mechanism are thoughts deemed to be "bad" or "good"?

I was reading your question last night, but this morning there is still no confident answer..

Anyway i'll try.
I think the mind makes an automatic connection to past experiences as a reference to label the thoughts.
So a bad thought can be related to a painful or stressful experience in the past.
But also not accepting the present moment or fears about the future.

There can also be unpleasant feeling/emotions in the body after a thought and the mind then recognizes the unpleasant feelings and claims the unpleasant feeling is the effect of the thought. This is the same with "good" thoughts and feelings.

Who is doing that?

Nobody, its like an autopilot

[QuantSelfLaFont]

not accepting the present moment or fears about the future.
..This is the same with "good" thoughts and feelings.

Good noticing. So good and bad are thoughts.

Question: If you are autopilot, how does control work?

[mikeymike]

Question: If you are autopilot, how does control work?

I feel that when a thought is believed as real or truth its controlling.

Example thought : "I can not do this" 95% that I will not do it.

If there is awareness of the thought when it passes, or short after it passes its not controlling then I just notice the thought but it does not influence me.

So sometimes the thoughts control me and sometimes not.

So lately I have been practicing the "seeing" and seeing is happening more often lately.
Before I practice it i make the decision to go and practice it. But when I look for the seeer I find nothing, mostly just deeper seeing.

I don't understand how to rhyme this all with free will.
If i want to go left or right, and I go left, thats a choice. So i don't get by what or by who or why the decision is made to go left.

Sometimes a thought causes me to make a decision but thats not always the case, sometimes its the autopilot.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

thought is believed as real or truth its controlling.

Exercise: Extend right arm with right hand palm up. Flip it over, look at back of hand. Flip over and look at palm. Flip, flip, flip.

Question1: What thought controls, or is believed here?

Question2: Who is doing the flipping?


Thanks

[mikeymike]

Question1: What thought controls, or is believed here?

Question2: Who is doing the flipping?

1. There was no thought at all that controlled or started or continued the flipping.

2. Nobody, there was just reading the exercise and then doing the flipping.

Thank you

[QuantSelfLaFont]

There was no thought at all that controlled or started or continued the flipping

Great

I am going to ask you four questions to check your perspective:

Question 1: Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

Question 2: Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.


Question3: How does it feel to see this?

Question4: In terms of free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for?

[mikeymike]

Question 1: Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

No there is not, and there never was.

Question 2: Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion started very young, around the age of 3.
A story started very simple by parents and other children telling me what I am, when this is believed I start seeing it as mine. Thoughts labeled with "I am" in front of it are believed.
Also out of fear and protection the story grows. As a young kid you are very vunerable and you want to make sense of this world. So there is creating of a self image because of that.

I think that also a desire to be special,unique and "better" then others contributes to make the story complexer.
But then again that desire is also just a story.

When you believe you are the owner and creator of the thoughts then you get trapped in the story.

There where different storys in my life all made up:
5-12 years: I was the nice friendly shy guy.
12-16 years: I was the rebellious rough party guy.
16-19 years: I was the spiritual wise guy.
20-23 years: I was the depressed guy.

All storys made up trying to deal with the outer world.
There are still storys coming up and sometimes they are believed but most of the time there is recognition that its not reality and just a story, sometimes a good story and sometimes a bad story.

Question3: How does it feel to see this?

Freeing in a way that there is no more deep desire to look for truth/ spiritual progress, and i dont have to waste time anymore with believing/feeding these complex storys in the future.
But there is also sadness because i cant hold on to a story of "this is me" anymore, and also because I had a lot of different expectations from reading from all these spiritual masters.

Question4: In terms of free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work?

Hmm hard question.
I don't know how it works.
When a decision is made its sometimes after a thought, and sometimes without a thought, if it's without a thought i feel its intuition. How does intuition work? I have no idea. Maybe a split decision made on past experiences and believes.
When a decision comes after a thought it is still not a controlled decision because thoughts just pop up.

I am lost here, i don't know how control or free will works, the idea that control is just an illusion scares me.

What are you responsible for?

Also a difficult question.
I feel making the world a little better while I exist.

Thanks!!

[mikeymike]

Question 1: Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there
ever?

No there is not, and there never was.

Thats what i answered yesterday but i feel like that was more an intellectual answer.
I'm not experiencing this fully yet, there is still an seperate entity, however when i look for it there is nothing to find.

Some moments im aware of the entity and then it has no grip over me, im then just watching it come and go again.
But sometimes there are these thoughts that are deeply rooted and believed, blocking the clear view.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

there is still an seperate entity, however when i look for it there is nothing to find.

Question: If there is nothing to find, how do you determine there is a separate entity?

[mikeymike]

Question: If there is nothing to find, how do you determine there is a separate entity?

I realise now that this where also only thoughts, just really convincing ones.

No there is no seperate entity.
There are thoughts and feelings and they just show up and go again. They dont belong to anybody.

There is also nobody that controls/can control the thoughts and feelings, only the illusion of control.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

OK, when you say you are

aware of the entity

..Question: What is happening?

[mikeymike]

..Question: What is happening?

Whats happening more often the last few days is that there is more and more recognition of thoughts and feelings when they appear. I feel that a lot of times a certain emotion/feeling in the body triggers "My" or My pain" thoughts.
And when I'm aware of this, it has less grip on me. Not just in an intellectual way but a real recognition that its a story.
Then there are just thoughts about pain and feelings in the body but there is no me to where they belong to.

In the beginning of this proces there was still a big difference perceived between what normal living and practicing "seeing".
I thought there was an "I" that was practicing the seeing.

Now it is just happening, something there is more focus sometimes less.
It does not require spending time alone or meditating.

I actually think that I got it and that it will only take time before all the thought/emotion layers will drop.

Thank you.

[QuantSelfLaFont]

I actually think that I got it

Question: Do you have any doubt that you have got it?