Open invitation, please come in.

[Nemo]

Do you exist, in any way, shape, or form?

[Aster42]

First off, thank you for doing this.

Second off, I know intellectually that I do not, and have had brief moments of clarity (what some call satori). Largely, these moments occurred while smoking pot; I'll admit that up front. I'm a grad student, which means a lot of my work is done from home, and none of it is subject to drug testing, so... smoking as a form of stress relief... happens.

I'd been meditating for several months, felt I had a better understanding of some of my negative thought patterns, but felt I wasn't getting anywhere. Then, for the first time in quite awhile, I sat down at my friend's table, we started smoking, and I had an incredible sense of connection and bliss (to be clear, the bliss was not a direct drug effect; I'd used higher doses before, and the body high, which one can also get from alcohol or caffeine, was nothing like this).

On a few attempts in the next few days, I was able to get back to that sense of powerlessness and connection with everything, and I can still sometimes get there in lengthy meditation, but it isn't completely real, and is always tainted with some fear that I'll lose it again. I do vipassayna meditation at my local unitarian church - that's the meditation I'm talking about. Have also started working on koans, but while I am able to quickly get convincing answers... at all but the best few moments, it is with some amount of struggle or feeling like... I'm playing the role of enlightened being, rather than that it's a permanent part of me... and some fear that if it becomes a permanent part of me, I will end up, for example, lacking in motivation to do anything. I saw this board linked from reddit, and figured it was worth a try.

Thank you again for being willing to help me along this path. If there's anything else I can answer, let me know.

[Nemo]

Hey there, it's a pleasure to be working with you.

Firstly, satori that is catalysed by something like pot, is an experience that is no more or less real than any other experience, so don't be concerned about it's validity. It's simply a different state or quality of consciousness. However, there is often a desire to hold on to or recreate said experience, using meditation for example. This is why it doesn't feel completely real, and that there is this fear of losing it. This fear also comes from the idea that "you own" this experience. Liberation comes from clearly seeing the truth, just once. The truth that there is no you. And this realisation is permanent in the same way as when you discover something you thought you knew, or had been told, is a lie - you never fall back in to believing that lie again or mistaking it for truth. Just like when you learned that Santa doesn't exist.

As you see, discovering Santa doesn't exist might be an experience, but it's not a state to hold on to. States or flavours of consciousness continue to come and go, but Santa remains a myth throughout. It requires no effort to sit and will the belief in Santa out of existence, the simple fact remains that Santa doesn't exist. It's the same with self.

Koans can be great fun and very useful, although finding quick, convincing answers isn't always the true goal. Have you heard of the expression, "the finger pointing at the moon?" A koan is a bit like the finger, or even better, a key for unlocking and opening up the mind, and creating circumstances conducive to realising truth. Any answer you find are not actually "the moon" either, but just another finger/pointer. So, koans can be a bit like meditating, or smoking pot; the idea is to create a state, to affect consciousness. But we don't want to get stuck thinking the finger is "it", and try to hold on to it or gaze at it. The goal is to see the moon :)

You said, "I'm playing the role of enlightened being, rather than that it's a permanent part of me..."
As I said, enlightenment comes from clearly seeing the truth, just once, that there is no you. Therefore it cannot become a permanent part of you. No-self is already permanent. Self cannot be changed, or even destroyed, because it is and always was an illusion.

So, I want you to try looking for a self, and answer me this: Do you exist in any way?
Take your time with it, and try not to get too lost in thought fractals, if you can help it :)

Looking forward to your response.

[Aster42]

I will take some time, and think about that. I'll post again tomorrow or Friday.

[xae214d5]

I understand intellectually that it makes sense for "me" to not exist, if the experience is all there is. I haven't been able to get any profound insight out of it, however.

[Aster42]

That's a great way of phrasing it. I guess if I had to answer now, I'd say that I am in the sense that I am the one that is speaking my thoughts.

[xae214d5]

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt, just hadn't read the rules. I'll refrain from posting, cheers

[Nemo]

No worries xae214d5.

Okay Aster, a good place to start. So tell me, what makes them your thoughts?

[Aster42]

Without getting too lost in reason, I can give only a preliminary reason. They're my thought since I owe the head they're in; likewise, the spark plugs in the driveway are mine since I own the car they're in.

[Nemo]

Does a head, or a car for that matter, need an owner to exist? What exactly comprises the 'you' that owns the head?

[Aster42]

Well, no. For example, nobody owned Antarctica before it was discovered - no logical contradiction there. I was away from the net over this long weekend (Monday, here, was Memorial Day), so I didn't get the chance to post... But I think, yesterday, I got it. I'm *not* the one speaking my thoughts, because they occur on their own. If anything, they might arise from some primal source or godhead, or might just be the functioning of basic physical laws... you drop a brick, it falls to the earth; you put pizza in front of me, thoughts of hunger arise, I eat it.

[Nemo]

Wonderful!
Eating a pizza is a great example.
'You' don't decide to eat a pizza. The body's requirement for food creates thoughts of hunger, rather than a separate self. And the preference to eat a pizza are created and decided by circumstance. It's the same with absolutely any and every thought, action, decision. It's the coming together of the precise combination of factors, conditions, environment and history, etc, in this moment. Starting from before even the birth of the body - from the very start of time and the creation of the universe itself. So the thinker/experiencer/decision maker is life itself. Pretty beautiful, huh?

So, let me ask you about few questions.

What exactly IS self, where did it come from, and how does it work?
How would you explain no-self to a child, or someone who had never heard of all this before, ie, in simplest terms possible?

[Aster42]

What exactly IS self, where did it come from, and how does it work?

It is the illusion of separateness, and of separate identity in particular. It comes from our culture, and to some extent our inherently dual language. To whatever extent it "is", it is just a pattern of ongoing habits and patterns of thoughts. It is no more inherently stable (or existent) than the standing waves where a stream goes over rocks, but the illusion is potentially seductive.

How would you explain no-self to a child, or someone who had never heard of all this before, ie, in simplest terms possible?

Nobody and nothing has a "self", separate from the universal Mind (which I might not mention at all). The idea that we do is a delusion, and a potentially harmful one. Everything we see, do, think, and feel, is just an unconscious reaction to a stimulus from the environment (or our internal physiological state). In other words, there is feeling going on, but nobody doing the feeling. Another analogy... when we say that Congress or Parliament "decides" to do something, that does not mean that it has a self, or is capable of thought or decision. It's just a linguistic shorthand for the politicians having reached majority agreement (and their voting is the only thing physically "happening").

Am I making any sense?

[Nemo]

Awesome, you're doing really nice work Aster, I'm really happy for you, well done :)
Tell me about little bit more about when you 'got it'. What exactly triggered it? What was it like and how did you feel before/during/after? What has changed? How do feel now?

[Aster42]

Going to take more time to think about this one :). It wasn't an all-at-once event, though. Took some time for me to become convinced.