Finding the narrow path

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Omen
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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:11 am

Ha - "the credibility of the voice" is just another voice giving credibility to the first voice!
voice or thought?
Mental commentary. I'd kinda seen them as the same.
Can a thought think?
Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?
No, a thought can't think.
No, thoughts just arise - there is no controlling them.
The only power a thought seems to have is if there is acting on the basis of its content. In itself it has no more power than a sound wave.
No, I don't experience the content. The content just is what it is. Nothing more.
This is infuriating!
Explore that. What is this feeling/emotion made up of?
It is the sensation arising subsequent to realising I have overlooked something. Would it arise if I hadn't overlooked something. Doubtful. Actually, perhaps, it is the sensation arising after reading words you had written. The "having overlooked something" is mental commentary.

S

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Omen
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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:44 am

Continuing ...

OK. "So that is itchy" is a thought. A sensation arises and gets labelled "itchy". Hmm.

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Sarah7
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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Sarah7 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 11:58 am

Hey S
Are you the doer?
Can you control anything?
Do you make decisions?
Are you the one who ‘does the thinking’?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:44 pm

Hi Sarah ... thx once again.
Are you the doer?
Can you control anything?
Do you make decisions?
Are you the one who ‘does the thinking’?
Decisions just happen. There is no doing. There is no control. There is noone thinking or generating thoughts, though there seem to be thoughts.

There are senses arising. There's a sense of being in a noman's land. All these thoughts/voices arising on reading these words suggesting that there is an "I" who need to make decisions, who needs to be in control. There is also confusion/uncertainty about whether there really is an "I" - a doubting voice which says "you are deluding yourself - you are obviously there" and a response which says "well if you are there, where are you?"

There is an "I" which definitely strengthens as the sensation arises which gets labelled itchy. Who\what is labelling? Labelling just happens. Is it "really" itchy? What is the "it"? A sensation in the body. But eyes are a sensation in the body. Why is one troubling and the other not? What makes one label acceptable and another label not so? Acceptable/Non acceptable are just more thoughts arising.

S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Sarah7 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:04 pm

Hi S
Sorry about the late response.
There is also confusion/uncertainty about whether there really is an "I" - a doubting voice which says "you are deluding yourself - you are obviously there" and a response which says "well if you are there, where are you?"
And what is this confusion/uncertainty made up of? Pick it apart and have a good look.
There is an "I" which definitely strengthens as the sensation arises
What do you mean definitely? What is this made up of?
Who\what is labelling? Labelling just happens. Is it "really" itchy? What is the "it"? A sensation in the body. But eyes are a sensation in the body. Why is one troubling and the other not? What makes one label acceptable and another label not so? Acceptable/Non acceptable are just more thoughts arising.
Good questions! Can you answer this?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Tue Jul 19, 2016 5:25 pm

Sorry about the late response.
Sarah, please don't apologise. You are doing me huge favours here - whatever you and I are!

I'll reply a soon as I get a bit of time to work on your response

Thx again. S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:04 am

Who\what is labelling? Labelling just happens. Is it "really" itchy? What is the "it"? A sensation in the body. But eyes are a sensation in the body. Why is one troubling and the other not? What makes one label acceptable and another label not so? Acceptable/Non acceptable are just more thoughts arising.
Can you answer this?

Having had another eczema attack in the middle of the night - the neck being the chief target - there is so much unconscious stuff going on it is tricky to break it down. Sometimes, an itch emerges and the hand responds. Sometimes the hand just moves to a sensitive area of its own accord and strokes the area. Often "itchiness arises" as a consequence and scratching results. Even at this moment of writing, there is itchiness in the forehead area which just gets scratched to excess leading to damage of the underlying skin. There is heat and all-consuming mental commentary of despair. "I want to be free of this, even if it is just arising as a play of life". There is still a sense of underlying peace, but it is overlooked.There is the application of cream/moisturiser to change the sensation in the itchy area to one which is more acceptable, I think, by expectation. There is definitely a sense of this sensation is acceptable whereas that other sensation demands a scratch response. Who is demanding it? Noone. It just happens as does the arising of the negative mental commentary. But it is loud enough to obscure the underlying peace.

Ah.

I can see that there is not an acceptance or, even an overlooking, of what is happening now and expectation arising that there should always be peace. There is the thought "but what is happening now - all this discomfort/scratching - is not what I want". Yep I know, intellectually in this scenario, there is no "I", but struggle to see beyond the experience. But really there is nothing beyond this experience.

Because this has been part of my experience for the majority of my life, it is difficult to only look to the current experience. I think I know how things will work out (I've got 50 years of experience) and don't like it. I don't like the thought of having to be like this the rest of my life. I like the thought of being free from it. Gosh, how much is the Now being overlooked! But that is ok. It is just happening.

But scratching/non-scratching just arises. One is accepted, the other is resisted. By whom? I don't know - a ghostly "I" that isn't there?

Thx again Sarah

S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Sarah7 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:19 am

Hey S
You: I can see that there is not an acceptance or, even an overlooking, of what is happening now and expectation arising that there should always be peace. There is the thought "but what is happening now - all this discomfort/scratching - is not what I want". Yep I know, intellectually in this scenario, there is no "I", but struggle to see beyond the experience. But really there is nothing beyond this experience.

Me: excellent. Something notices all this yes? Is this the peace behind you mentioned? Does the peace notice all? Is that which notices ever not there? Have a look. Keep checking in with it to see if it's ever not there noticing.
Does that which notice care what is experienced? Is it ever bothered by one thing or another? Does it mind if there is identification or not?

You: Gosh. How much of the now is being over looked.

Me: indeed. See much of your thoughts are based or are on memories and how much is forward projecting.
But do you do that one purpose?

You: One is accepted, the other is resisted. By whom? I don't know - a ghostly "I" that isn't there?

Me: can it be found? Anywhere?
Don't forget the other question from above!
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Wed Jul 20, 2016 2:15 pm

I can see that there is not an acceptance or, even an overlooking, of what is happening now and expectation arising that there should always be peace. There is the thought "but what is happening now - all this discomfort/scratching - is not what I want". Yep I know, intellectually in this scenario, there is no "I", but struggle to see beyond the experience. But really there is nothing beyond this experience.
excellent. Something notices all this yes? Is this the peace behind you mentioned? Does the peace notice all? Is that which notices ever not there? Have a look. Keep checking in with it to see if it's ever not there noticing.
Does that which notice care what is experienced? Is it ever bothered by one thing or another? Does it mind if there is identification or not?

I don't think anything notices all this. What is, is - good or ill. So even the expectation of peace isn't right. ... and then arise voices of objection ... "of course there's peace ... it's what you've wanted all your life" .. the label given to the next experience responding, no, subsequent to that notion ..
Gosh. How much of the now is being over looked.
indeed. See much of your thoughts are based or are on memories and how much is forward projecting.
But do you do that one purpose?

No not at all. Not sure if it is habitual? But what is doing the habit? There isn't an agent of any sort. It is just happening. If I add "repeatedly", there is the invocation of memories and an attempt to rationalise rather than just be with the Now ...
One is accepted, the other is resisted. By whom? I don't know - a ghostly "I" that isn't there?
can it be found? Anywhere?
Nope.
Don't forget the other question from above!
There is also confusion/uncertainty about whether there really is an "I" - a doubting voice which says "you are deluding yourself - you are obviously there" and a response which says "well if you are there, where are you?"
And what is this confusion/uncertainty made up of? Pick it apart and have a good look.

I can't work this out. An "I" hasn't been found, but there is still a nagging voice of doubt - when reflecting on it ..

OK. "nagging voice of doubt" is a label placed on the experience arising ...
There is an "I" which definitely strengthens as the sensation arises
What do you mean definitely? What is this made up of?
Strong feelings. Sensations which are more pronounced than others. There is negative commentary associated with these feelings which is what makes them stand out (e.g. the sensation of the eyes - yeah ok, meh, so what; the sensation of the itchiness/violent scratching - NO, NOT THIS, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP) ... and then arises the desire to respond to both in the same peaceful way, saying "if only I can accept the itchiness/scratching as it is, then there will be peace". But those thoughts/desires just arise as part of the flow of things, never actually changing things but just the next thing to arise ...

Thx again Sarah

S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Sarah7 » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:25 am

Mornin S
I don't think anything notices all this.
But it is noticed isn't it? Noticing happens? And how does it feel when noticing happens from the view point of the noticer, not what is being noticed? (Does that make sense?).
Not sure if it is habitual? But what is doing the habit? There isn't an agent of any sort. It is just happening. If I add "repeatedly", there is the invocation of memories and an attempt to rationalise rather than just be with the Now ...
Habits is a good one to look at from the point of view of the noticer - for question 1!
I can't work this out. An "I" hasn't been found, but there is still a nagging voice of doubt - when reflecting on it .. OK. "nagging voice of doubt" is a label placed on the experience arising ...
Just thought? Have a look. Is thought saying 'this isn't it'? 'This cant be it'? 'Keep seeking'? If thought hadn't said anything would anything be wrong with right now?
NO, NOT THIS, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP) ... and then arises the desire to respond to both in the same peaceful way, saying "if only I can accept the itchiness/scratching as it is, then there will be peace". But those thoughts/desires just arise as part of the flow of things, never actually changing things but just the next thing to arise ...
Can you choose to accept? Try it! Does it work? :)
Can you choose to not have that response to the itchiness?
From the point of view of the noticer - can you observe all change - rise and fall away, move? And if you can what do you notice?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Thu Jul 21, 2016 9:50 am

Hi Sarah
I don't think anything notices all this.
But it is noticed isn't it? Noticing happens?
Is it noticed or does it just happen?
And how does it feel when noticing happens from the view point of the noticer, not what is being noticed?
You may need to help me out here. Not quite sure how to answer this. It is difficult to separate out the noticing from the noticer other than the feelings that arise subsequent to the noticing. The feelings then become a property of (or seem to get associated with) the noticer. Perhaps they even cause the noticer to come into being. Prior to that the noticer and the noticing are 'one'. Does that make sense?
I can't work this out. An "I" hasn't been found, but there is still a nagging voice of doubt - when reflecting on it .. OK. "nagging voice of doubt" is a label placed on the experience arising ...
Just thought? Have a look. Is thought saying 'this isn't it'? 'This cant be it'? 'Keep seeking'? If thought hadn't said anything would anything be wrong with right now?
No there really is no problem if "I" doesn't exist and thoughts comments are just followed by feelings of uncertainty.
NO, NOT THIS, PLEASE MAKE IT STOP) ... and then arises the desire to respond to both in the same peaceful way, saying "if only I can accept the itchiness/scratching as it is, then there will be peace". But those thoughts/desires just arise as part of the flow of things, never actually changing things but just the next thing to arise ...
Can you choose to accept? Try it! Does it work? :)
Can you choose to not have that response to the itchiness?
From the point of view of the noticer - can you observe all change - rise and fall away, move? And if you can what do you notice?
This is helpful ...
No I can't choose to accept it otherwise I would. No I can't stop the response otherwise I would.

There is an underlying fear that if I just give in to the scratching impulse, I'll just become a red, bleeding mess - which I often do anyway! there is no control yet insistence on trying to get in control. I can see the flow (cycle) of scratching, skin being damaged, skin repairing itself, scratching ... and can also see the thought pattern "don't scratch ... DON'T scratch ... DON'T SCRATCH ..., ok scratch gently, ahh ... just SCRATCH ... then peace" - but that pattern is interpreted as resistence to the underlying scratching ... rather than just the thought/experience which accompanies the scratching.

It is interesting that the peace follows the scratching and the giving up of trying not to scratch. I had just seen the peace arising because I had satiated the itch, but now I'm beginning to wonder whether it arises because there is no attempt at control.

The underlying fear is related primarily to feeling embarrassed going out in public with weeping red skin. The feelings of discomfort just get interpreted into/reenforce this thinking.

Thx again Sarah

S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Thu Jul 21, 2016 1:35 pm

So Sarah ... Having just written about feeling fear ... I've just read some of your other posts to others about facing fear even if it threatens to destroy you. How to do it? I can talk about it, but struggle to even find it? I think I'm looking for it but I'm obviously hiding it from me or else it doesn't exist and it is just something arising from a thought.

Thx again

S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Sarah7 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 7:46 am

Mornin S
Is it noticed or does it just happen?
That's what Im asking you! :) Is it one or the other or both?
You may need to help me out here. Not quite sure how to answer this. It is difficult to separate out the noticing
Don't need you to separate - just want you to look from the point of view of the notice. Its sort of like watching clouds pass by - you just watch what happens - so if you watched thoughts pass you notice what is there but are not following the story line. Does that make sense?
It is interesting that the peace follows the scratching and the giving up of trying not to scratch. I had just seen the peace arising because I had satiated the itch, but now I'm beginning to wonder whether it arises because there is no attempt at control.
So in this instance - you watch/observe/notice all this happening as if its happening to someone else. There is a distance there. When this experience starts - it may (or not) be helpful to write down as if you are writing a report. Watch like a hawk what is noticed as if its not happening to you. Notice the thoughts and stories around, the feelings and impulses, the emotions, and explore the itchiness too - like the labels attached and the feelings towards.
The underlying fear is related primarily to feeling embarrassed going out in public with weeping red skin. The feelings of discomfort just get interpreted into/reenforce this thinking.
and
I can talk about it, but struggle to even find it?
Do you mean you cant find the fear? Or don't experience it? Im assuming you do so heres a very long exercise!
In order to know fear we have to know resistance. Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’. Turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely, even with the possibility that it might annihilate you? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened.
What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this fear labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called fear? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation fear? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought? The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Omen » Sat Jul 23, 2016 7:50 am

Morning Sarah
Is it noticed or does it just happen?
That's what Im asking you! :) Is it one or the other or both?
You may need to help me out here. Not quite sure how to answer this. It is difficult to separate out the noticing
Don't need you to separate - just want you to look from the point of view of the notice. Its sort of like watching clouds pass by - you just watch what happens - so if you watched thoughts pass you notice what is there but are not following the story line. Does that make sense?
Both then, I guess. It depends whether there is awareness of the noticer. Certainly watching clouds pass by is one experience. Being consumed in scratching is another and although there is a very vague sense of the noticer - yes, it is still there - it is almost completely obscured by the being caught up in the scratching. In those circumstances whether there is a noticer is almost an academic question. But then again, that is a thought saying something like "Look at how itchy you are. Who cares if there is a noticer or not!" but it seems to have a lot of power in that setting. There is no strength to silence it. But obviously that is just another thought arising after the previous thought, suggesting that something needs to be silenced. Gosh!
It is interesting that the peace follows the scratching and the giving up of trying not to scratch. I had just seen the peace arising because I had satiated the itch, but now I'm beginning to wonder whether it arises because there is no attempt at control.
So in this instance - you watch/observe/notice all this happening as if its happening to someone else. There is a distance there. When this experience starts - it may (or not) be helpful to write down as if you are writing a report. Watch like a hawk what is noticed as if its not happening to you. Notice the thoughts and stories around, the feelings and impulses, the emotions, and explore the itchiness too - like the labels attached and the feelings towards.
... so difficult to create or find the space ... but yes ... writing is helpful. More obvious that there is a noticer watching the stuff being written and the stuff being written is just emerging. "Just thinking", for this body-mind at least, is more easily caught up in the thinking and noticer/noticing fades into the background again. Cool! Writing is a good practice!
The underlying fear is related primarily to feeling embarrassed going out in public with weeping red skin. The feelings of discomfort just get interpreted into/reenforce this thinking.
...
I can talk about it, but struggle to even find it?
Do you mean you cant find the fear? Or don't experience it?

It is experienced but cannot be located by looking/noticing. Presumably that means that this body-mind has become that fear at those moments.

Side-Note: Comfortable talking about "this body-mind". I can see why it gets used as a term. It is just a vessel. Feel less comfortable talking about "I" or "me" in this context. Doesn't seem to express things quite right. Things are just emerging. There is a noticer, but it isn't an "I" or "me". This all happens in or around this body-mind, but no ownership is involved. There is no "I" agent causing things to happen. The "I" agent comes to the fore more when the "you are a victim" thought arises.
Im assuming you do so heres a very long exercise!
Now this is interesting. I tried to stay with fear as best I could. What emerged was the impulse to write a letter to the school where I was abused.I followed that impulse and for the first time I felt I could speak directly to the school about my grievance with them. (I was, quite recently, involved in a court case against the teacher involved, but it all ended completely unresolved. I won't go into details unless prompted). The letter was written. It just emerged pretty effortlessly. As I re-read it, there was a sense of power, liberation and wonder. There was a liking of the language used, the way things were expressed, even though others may find it too flowery or pompous (again "Thought! I see you!"). There was wonder at the expression used. There was no egocentric "Look what I have produced". No attempt to claim any glory. Just a beautiful experience. Unbelievable - just from writing a letter!

Further It seemed that "I" was no longer in thrall to the voices which demanded my silence. No that is not quite right. The sense of "I" was not to the fore at all. It was just "stuff happening". The voices had no weight, no authority to stop the writing of the letter. A voice could be heard for the first time in many many years. It was as valid a voice as much as the ones which would seek to silence it, but there was no resistance (repression) to it expressing itself.
In order to know fear we have to know resistance. Fear is resistance and ‘I don’t like’. Turn towards this feeling of fear so completely, so fully, allow it into you without the slightest trace of resistance – then turn around and see what remains of the fear. Can you allow this fear so completely, even with the possibility that it might annihilate you? Can you see that what you essentially are already allows that so fully without the slightest resistance to it? For who or what is it a problem that there is fear? Is it a problem for a single thought? What is it a problem for after that single thought has gone as it will? Another thought? In between the 2 thoughts is there a problem? Only thought is worried or threatened.
What is the sensation itself – striped of story – ignore the thoughts – look to the sensation only. The sensation changes continually or vibrates. Go into it. How old is the vibration, how long has this fear labelled sensation been? Has it just happened, does it have a history this sensation (apart from what thought gives it). How would you describe this sensation? Is it ever changing? Is it painful? Is it a problem this sensation? If thought says its unpleasant is it really? Go to the sensations and check under the label and story. Is unpleasantness added by thought? Look as new born baby – you know nothing but the current experience – is it really unpleasant? Go to the sensation – turn down the volume of the thoughts – is it a problem? If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something labelled or called fear? Is there any inherent fear in the sensation itself? Go to the sensation located at the sole of your foot – would you call that sensation fear? Or is it just a tingling vibration? Now compare these 2 sensations – the neutral soles of the feet to the labelled sensation in the chest or where ever – whats the difference between them? Don’t refer to the labels – just refer to the sensations. Is one more intense? Like a headache? If you don’t refer to your thoughts is it unpleasant? Could you live with this sensation for the rest of your life? Can you see how the thoughts get mixed up with the sensation? Is there an ‘I cant’ in there – that’s a thought. Is there an ‘I don’t want’ in there – that’s a thought. Go past the thought to the body sensation. Can you detect interpretation of the sensation? Thoughts again. Can you see the labels thought is trying to add - like – ‘this is fear’, ‘this is unpleasant’ or ‘this has been here for so long’? None of these thoughts actually belong to the sensation. See the thoughts but place them to one side. Without these thoughts would you know these sensations were fear? Same with the body – pure tingling sensation with thought overlaid. Is there resistance in the sensation or is it in the thought? The constriction is caused by thought. The tension is caused by thoughts. What happens as the sensation is relieved of its labels?
I shall ponder this and keep coming back to it.

Sorry if the thoughts seem a bit jumbled. Definitely are incites arising and I just jot them down.

Many thx again, Sarah

S

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Re: Finding the narrow path

Postby Sarah7 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 8:54 am

Hey S
there is a very vague sense of the noticer - yes, it is still there
I want you to keep looking for it. Keep checking in to see if its ever not there. Ever not accessible. Get curious about it!
... so difficult to create or find the space ... but yes ... writing is helpful. More obvious that there is a noticer watching the stuff being written and the stuff being written is just emerging. "Just thinking", for this body-mind at least, is more easily caught up in the thinking and noticer/noticing fades into the background again. Cool! Writing is a good practice!
Yes writing it down can create a distance which is helpful to see/notice. However look out for the thought that this can be used a practise, or a thought that says this can be used to get rid of, or something like. Just notice that thought if its there - nothing else.
Things are just emerging. There is a noticer, but it isn't an "I" or "me". This all happens in or around this body-mind, but no ownership is involved. There is no "I" agent causing things to happen. The "I" agent comes to the fore more when the "you are a victim" thought arises.
Nice - keep looking. Notice when thought story gets involved what happens with ownership. Notice also the weight of the story. Do you bring the stories? Or do they just appear? Do you have a choice to become involved with them or not?
Hugs Sarah xxx
If you understand, things are just as they are; if you do not understand, things are just as they are.


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