Birdman

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Birdman wrote:
Although today, one day after it has not been felt so clearly.
Is there an emotional reaction to this ?

Yes, slight disappointment, feeling of sadness and frustration.

Birdman wrote:
Annoyance/irritation happen here when important connection is not picked up/understood. Irritation usually inward.
Did i miss a connection ?

Oh, no! It was here it was missed. Irritation over "my-self", purely thoughts.

Birdman wrote:
Without "supporting evidence" like a "felt" shift this bodymind has difficulties to trust itself.
Have a look at this video. Notice the part where the researcher uses virtual reality goggles to put the sense of self outside and behind the body. https://www.dropbox.com/s/al2k2mya8jt4o ... u.mp4?dl=0
Then tell me if you can trust your feelings to confirm anything.

Thanks for the link to the super interesting film! That was a very simple yet revealing experiment! Interesting to see this seasoned scientist so baffled by his experiences. So the answer to your question seems to be an obvious NO! So much for my highly regarded "intuition"! Belief by belief is going down the drain..! Or maybe transmutes in the fire of clarity.
(BTW if it's difficult to see it from Dropbox due to high load, it's also on Vimeo.)

Birdman wrote:
Have to learn trusting.
If we examine trust, it is easy to see that it is not an actual thing. That it is a concept that describes an absence of stories that engender fear sensations. Is it a concept that doesn't arise unless suspicion happens ? Is trust always about what might happen in the future ?

Hmm... I guess suspicion or insecurity must be there first. Yes, trust seem to point to future.

Birdman wrote:
But it would be nice to go to bed knowing it was here when I wake up in the morning.
Yes, i know what you mean. Now, is it possible to know anything ? Give me one example of something that you know for sure.

There is knowing about what can be directly experienced. The sense of "I am" is known for sure. That this bodymind will one day expire. Not much really.

Birdman wrote:
"That" seem so illusive, vulnerable and shy. Here one day, gone the other.
Another example of impermanence.

Yes, the name of the game! "You can't go down in the same river twice."

Birdman wrote:
an endless chain of cause and effect?
Good one (the ?) Yes, cause and effect is something we can examine productively. Is this a concept or something actual ?

Cause and effect seem to permeate the creation at a physical level. It is not always a crystal clear relation (what's the chicken and what's the egg) but the concept seems true and valid. Examples all over nature.

Birdman wrote:
How that even is possible..?
i don't understand the question.

More an exclamation, surprised to hear me saying that I experienced distrust in "What is"!

Birdman wrote:
This process brings up some childishness and child like thinking
Yes. At what age do you think conditioning to believe in a Self, started ?

Difficult to say, but by experience I'd guess it's not a sudden happening but more gradual. From the age the baby realises that it is separate from its caretakers, maybe 2-3 years... It's a wonder that most of us survive that period relatively sane!

Birdman wrote:
What worries the most today
Did you recognize the activity of the worry stories ? ..or did it engulf you to the point where the result was emotional expression of the content of the stories ?

The worry we're talking of now is probably due to the feeling of impermanence issue. There were no story really, no thinking, more emotion, an intuitive response in the body.

Birdman wrote:
the happening of a seeming come back of the "me", feebler but here.
How many years of conditioning, of habit are we looking to drop ?

Ha!! In our age a decent lifetime of it!

Birdman wrote:
Feelings of sadness arise.
Oh, not just worry stories, but stories of loss too.
Is there a sense of ownership, of possession in identification ?

Yes, the glimpses of freedom creates a wanting to own it to be brutally and painfully honest. On another plane there's the "grace" concept/story and of course it can't be owned and wanting feels arrogant. Still happens...

Birdman wrote:
Maybe too attached to freedom.
..attached to an idea, or something more tangible ?

You seem to look through me :) More tangible yes, feeling the smoothness, the sweetness of freedom.

love & hugs

Birdman

[Birdman]

One more comment on the film. The weirdest part was that with the decision making, push one or the other button and the person who conducted the test knew 6 seconds(!) before the the test subject which button would be pushed. I am trying to see the consequences of this.

Cheers!
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Is there an emotional reaction to this ?
Yes, slight disappointment, feeling of sadness and frustration.

When these emotions arose, was it seen that they were happening, or were you lost in them ?

BTW if it's difficult to see it from Dropbox due to high load,

Yeah thanks. They (dropbox) banned my public link, citing too much traffic. i will use the Vimeo one in future.

So much for my highly regarded "intuition"! Belief by belief is going down the drain..!

This is a big one. If you can't believe thoughts, and even the interpretation of feelings is unreliable, how do we avoid a nihilistic world view ? (rhetorical question) My story is that this happens to some people they are only partly through the 'gate'.
i also have a story that the default 'state' for a human is healthy, happy and creative. That it is the misplaced belief that what is actually concept, is taken as reality, that corrupts this default condition.
Now, things have worked (albeit in a less than perfect way) up to this point, in spite of those misplaced beliefs, and although you and i may be awake (to the illusions that others take as real), we still have to operate in that environment.
Luckily, we can behave AS IF we are as deluded as those others, without actually believing what they believe. No conflict. We willingly accept what life-ing offers, as we realize that there is no choice anyway. Water off a ducks back. Our transformation is internal. Sleepwalkers (no denigration felt or intended) don't recognize us as different.
So, with this default of healthy, happy and creative, and a recognition that THIS is all story, every moment is an adventure. Full of wonder. WonderFull. Never ending discovery. Not discovery of information or facts, but of more wonder. A seemingly endless stream of wonder emerging from a great mystery.

I guess suspicion or insecurity must be there first.

So are these seemingly negative emotions, of any use ? Might they be triggers to alert you (to trigger recognition) that you are getting lost in concept ?

There is knowing about what can be directly experienced.

Yes, but this is a tricky one. Remember the bum/seat exercise ? There was the sensation, but we had to overlay/distort it in order to describe it.
Is to know it, what happens pre-word, or when it it described ?
..or is pre-word experiencing chock full of what is not known (wonder) ? Don't answer from logic. Do the exercise again if memory is insufficient.

The sense of "I am" is known for sure.

Is it ? Check and tell me if that is not a logica conclusion ?

That this bodymind will one day expire.

This certainly is a story. ..and not even a good one at that. Even if it is believed by 99.999% of people. Have a look at this article; http://content.time.com/time/printout/0 ... 99,00.html

Cause and effect seem to permeate the creation at a physical level.

Yes, certainly it seems this way. There are two illusions to recognize here. "physical level" and "Cause and effect". Let's do Cause and effect first.
You are standing outside in the open. The sun is shining brightly. You feel hot.
These are descriptions (using consensual concepts) They can be verified in experiencing.
You say the sun is the cause of the hot feeling. Can this be verified by experience ? or is the link something purely introduced by the mind ?
Now this is not to say that cause and effect doesn't exist. Just that we can only know of it as a concept. ..and for practical purposes, we will behave AS IF it does exist. Practical because it is part of consensual reality.
"physical level" is something that we will also continue to behave AS IF it were real, for the same reasons. ..but is it also more than concept ?
Touch the table. There is sensation. In an attempt to describe a reason for that particular sensation you will use the concept of physicality. What is your experiencing, other than the sensation ? Is it of the mind attempting to do what it is obsessed with ? To describe, categorize, label.
Don't believe a word i say. If your experiencing doesn't confirm this completely, then we will examine further.

There were no story really, no thinking, more emotion, an intuitive response in the body.

Story here is that there is always a story behind emotion. If the story was internalized a long time ago, then it might not be seen when it is triggered today. Even something as basic as the fight/flight reflex, has the story of being eaten by the sabre tooth lion. Is the toddler frightened of the sleeping lion before he is warned ?

More tangible yes, feeling the smoothness, the sweetness of freedom.

Hmm, ok. Would it be more accurate to say "attached to the feelings of smoothness and sweetness that are triggered by the concept of freedom." ? (cause and effect again)

The weirdest part was that with the decision making, push one or the other button and the person who conducted the test knew 6 seconds(!) before the the test subject which button would be pushed. I am trying to see the consequences of this.

Ah excellent. Here is a relevance; When choice or decision happen, is it a Self doing it ? ..or is it a result of conditions aligning ? (now we have to recognize that my story of necessary conditions, is also a convenient concept)

love & excitement here

vince

[Birdman]

s there an emotional reaction to this ?
Yes, slight disappointment, feeling of sadness and frustration.
When these emotions arose, was it seen that they were happening, or were you lost in them ?

At first they were clearly noticed but apparently not seen through. Wouldn't say I was lost in them but definitely affected. Well, maybe you're right, I was lost in them. If I wasn't lost in them they would have been revealed and seen through.

Birdman wrote:
So much for my highly regarded "intuition"! Belief by belief is going down the drain..!
This is a big one. If you can't believe thoughts, and even the interpretation of feelings is unreliable, how do we avoid a nihilistic world view ? (rhetorical question) My story is that this happens to some people they are only partly through the 'gate'.
i also have a story that the default 'state' for a human is healthy, happy and creative. That it is the misplaced belief that what is actually concept, is taken as reality, that corrupts this default condition.
Now, things have worked (albeit in a less than perfect way) up to this point, in spite of those misplaced beliefs, and although you and i may be awake (to the illusions that others take as real), we still have to operate in that environment.
Luckily, we can behave AS IF we are as deluded as those others, without actually believing what they believe. No conflict. We willingly accept what life-ing offers, as we realize that there is no choice anyway. Water off a ducks back. Our transformation is internal. Sleepwalkers (no denigration felt or intended) don't recognize us as different.
So, with this default of healthy, happy and creative, and a recognition that THIS is all story, every moment is an adventure. Full of wonder. WonderFull. Never ending discovery. Not discovery of information or facts, but of more wonder. A seemingly endless stream of wonder emerging from a great mystery.

I will have to come back to this many times. I'm afraid I don't follow you quite here... but try to.
Not believe thoughts nor feelings. I'm welcoming it, that's why we're here! To see what's real. Definitely have to read this several times. I'm sure the question could be rhetorical but here in the dreamworld seen as a perfectly valid question. The risk for nihilism could be imminent if the right preconditions are met, depending maybe on personality, age and/or a general pessimistic outlook on life. I see the risk of taking beliefs of self and life in general for the truth! I don't consider myself awake but learning to See. "We willingly accept what life-ing offers, as we realize that there is no choice anyway". Like the verse from the bible, "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." Beautiful both. Willingly or in this context less than willingly.
"So, with this default of healthy, happy and creative, and a recognition that THIS is all story, every moment is an adventure. Full of wonder. WonderFull. Never ending discovery. Not discovery of information or facts, but of more wonder. A seemingly endless stream of wonder emerging from a great mystery." With "default" "healthy, happy and creative" you mean the mood or spirit you meet each day? Knowing that it is a story? Please clarify the above "THIS" and "all story".

Birdman wrote:
I guess suspicion or insecurity must be there first.
So are these seemingly negative emotions, of any use ? Might they be triggers to alert you (to trigger recognition) that you are getting lost in concept ?

Interesting question. "...of any use"? What comes to mind spontaneously is that these feelings (suspicion, insecurity, trust) are here for a very good reason. They have served us through the millennia. They must have been important to assess the mood of the sabre-toothed tiger or the neighbouring tribe to secure survival. Of use or not, primally(?) conditioned they happen! I can agree that they also can alert to trigger recognition. Better use now as sabre toothed tigers are scarce these days.

Birdman wrote:
There is knowing about what can be directly experienced.
Yes, but this is a tricky one. Remember the bum/seat exercise ? There was the sensation, but we had to overlay/distort it in order to describe it.
Is to know it, what happens pre-word, or when it it described ?
..or is pre-word experiencing chock full of what is not known (wonder) ? Don't answer from logic. Do the exercise again if memory is insufficient.

Yes, but the description is words, labels and pointers to the real bum/chair experience. "Experiencing" comes before the words describing it. Remember the chair in the garden a week ago. The experiencing that it was almost "alive" with its humble standing there just waiting to serve. But that was more experiencing than "knowing". I can't think of what "knowing" is right now as you put some press on it!!!

Birdman wrote:
The sense of "I am" is known for sure.
Is it ? Check and tell me if that is not a logical conclusion ?

Well, maybe it's not "known" (whatever that means, HELP, I don't know what "know" means or stand for!) but clearly "experienced".

Birdman wrote:
That this bodymind will one day expire.
This certainly is a story. ..and not even a good one at that. Even if it is believed by 99.999% of people. Have a look at this article; http://content.time.com/time/printout/0 ... 99,00.html

Fascinating stuff! But I don't know what information is relevant to "This bodymind will one day expire". The last triumph AI had was the GO-match against the worlds strongest human player Lee Sedol where computer won 4-1! Go much harder then chess since it has more elements of fantasy and intuition and orders of magnitude more combinations, so counting is not enough.
Let me rephrase, in the infinite depths of this Now the body will expire, in the same Now as I was born!

Birdman wrote:
Cause and effect seem to permeate the creation at a physical level.
Yes, certainly it seems this way. There are two illusions to recognize here. "physical level" and "Cause and effect". Let's do Cause and effect first.
You are standing outside in the open. The sun is shining brightly. You feel hot.
These are descriptions (using consensual concepts) They can be verified in experiencing.
You say the sun is the cause of the hot feeling. Can this be verified by experience ? or is the link something purely introduced by the mind ?
Now this is not to say that cause and effect doesn't exist. Just that we can only know of it as a concept. ..and for practical purposes, we will behave AS IF it does exist. Practical because it is part of consensual reality.
"physical level" is something that we will also continue to behave AS IF it were real, for the same reasons. ..but is it also more than concept ?
Touch the table. There is sensation. In an attempt to describe a reason for that particular sensation you will use the concept of physicality. What is your experiencing, other than the sensation ? Is it of the mind attempting to do what it is obsessed with ? To describe, categorize, label.
Don't believe a word i say. If your experiencing doesn't confirm this completely, then we will examine further.

I don't know where to start. This is getting very philosophical/psychological. As seen here - the sun at least indirectly makes you feel hot as the heat buildup in your body has more difficult to evaporate due to the air around your body getting hotter. Hence you need sweat or/and a strong fan or a garden hose (preferably both) to wet your body with which helps cooling of the body when it takes heat from it to evaporate...bla..bla... So the sun indirectly makes your body feel hot! Cause: buildup of heat in your body, caused by sun, still air etc... Effect: cooling of body must happen (at least in Australian summer I guess) so sweating sets in. If you lie in the sun, even up here the body gets hot. I agree that there is some blur in dE, like bum/chair so I guess you are right pointing at that. dE only tells of heat on the skin, a drop of sweat on the forehead maybe. Re. the table - yes, wordless experiencing first. Very soon, less than a second labelling starts almost compulsively, "cool, hard, smooth but grainy, wood".

Birdman wrote:
There were no story really, no thinking, more emotion, an intuitive response in the body.
Story here is that there is always a story behind emotion. If the story was internalized a long time ago, then it might not be seen when it is triggered today. Even something as basic as the fight/flight reflex, has the story of being eaten by the sabre tooth lion. Is the toddler frightened of the sleeping lion before he is warned ?

Maybe there is, could be fast I guess. Or deeply hidden. See comment on sabre toothed lion above ;)
Ha! No probably not if it is a confident and secure child. But not much is needed to trigger a fear response.

Birdman wrote:
More tangible yes, feeling the smoothness, the sweetness of freedom.
Hmm, ok. Would it be more accurate to say "attached to the feelings of smoothness and sweetness that are triggered by the concept of freedom." ? (cause and effect again)

To be perfectly honest, it seems so yes.

Birdman wrote:
The weirdest part was that with the decision making, push one or the other button and the person who conducted the test knew 6 seconds(!) before the the test subject which button would be pushed. I am trying to see the consequences of this.
Ah excellent. Here is a relevance; When choice or decision happen, is it a Self doing it ? ..or is it a result of conditions aligning ? (now we have to recognize that my story of necessary conditions, is also a convenient concept)

Definitely not a thought based Self! The subject was not even aware of what button he would press 6 secs before it actually was "chosen", but the person conducting the experiment was!!! So "conditions aligning" seems to be the horse to bet on.
Weird though, the whole experiment! But probably relevant to what is being looked into here.

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Birdman,

At first they were clearly noticed but apparently not seen through.

It is the noticing of them that is the first (and most important) step. "Seeing through them" is not possible without the noticing. ..and even if it is not apparent, some resolution will happen with the noticing.
There is an exception to this, and that is when the emotional reaction to what is seen, is a defensive one. If justification is the predominant response, depending on how that plays out, they can be reinforced. A big indicator of this is if someone or something else is blamed.

If I wasn't lost in them they would have been revealed and seen through.

Hmm, by "lost in them", i mean if the content is acted out, expressed. Now even if this happens, and then it is seen to be happening, and the recognition of the seeing is acknowledged (hopefully celebrated), then we are on a winning streak. Even it this happens much later. Even days later.

If I wasn't lost in them they would have been revealed and seen through.

This might not be immediate and complete. Sometimes it is progressive. Less intense and less frequent over time. (hmm, time is another thing we can investigate) ..and the origin doesn't need to be acknowledged, although when it is also seen, that is when it is most likely to be immediate and complete. (depending on how habitual it has become)

I will have to come back to this many times. I'm afraid I don't follow you quite here...

Yes, it was a bit of a rant. Do re-read it and hone in on any particular bit to investigate.
i'm not aware of anybody that i guided falling into the nihilism trap, but it's not uncommon, so i was just intending to deal with it at the point where we seem to have nothing to trust. It's only when we experience that thoughts and sensations are convenient (and sometimes not so convenient) story creators, that we find out that we can totally trust life-ing. That the default works brilliantly.

that's why we're here! To see what's real.

Yes, and we are at the point where we are poking at the membrane of reality, and starting to recognize that nothing is real. ..or rather that nothing that we 'touch' is real. That if there is anything real, that it is not known (there's that word again) to us. ("us" is another illusion to investigate)

I see the risk of taking beliefs of self and life in general for the truth!

Ha, this "seeing the risk", is the stretching as you wake up.

I don't consider myself awake

Oh, and what will be the hallmark (that you can trust) of being awake ?

learning to See.

..and doing very well with this. (my story)

you mean the mood or spirit you meet each day?

i mean, just keep an eye out for this.

Knowing that it is a story? Please clarify the above "THIS" and "all story".

Hmm, perhaps this was a bit of a jump. ..but now that we are here (looking at this) Tell me what is not story ? Is there anything at all, internally or externally that is not some interpretation happening in (the concept) of Birdman's brain ?

I can't think of what "knowing" is right now as you put some press on it!!!

Yes, of course, it is just a convenient concept.

information is relevant to "This bodymind will one day expire".

Just saying that even this cannot be 'for sure'. ..but even without this, it is obvious that death is nothing more than a story, from the perspective of Birdman, at this time. What say you ?

Let me rephrase, in the infinite depths of this Now the body will expire, in the same Now as I was born!

i agree that it's a compelling story...

As seen here - the sun at least indirectly makes you feel hot

Yes, another compelling story.
A glowing orb is seen above, heat is felt. Everything else is thought stuff. Can you make anything else (about this) tangible ?

Hence you need

Does this state that you are in the realm of logic, concept ?

So "conditions aligning" seems to be the horse to bet on.

Yes, but even this is just a useful story. What do you reckon ?

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

More and more felt here that this inquiry in getting out of control in this end. Words with, for this one, unclear significance is used in mystifying ways. It's not that I do not understand the words per se (there are dictionaries), more what you "put" in them. For instance "knowing"; If you mean that "knowing" is impossible then best to say so. In this example I struggle with different knowings, let's say if I have built furniture my whole life I'd say I "know" how to make furniture. Once burnt myself on boiling water I "know" it's hot and take care. If someone I trusted in ornithological matters pointed out, and I heard and saw the kookaburra once, I "know" when I see it that this feathered friend is a life form that has the label of "kookaburra" etc. All beyond reasonable doubt and as "known" as it possibly can in this world.
I feel that instead of things becoming clearer, I am in an increasingly impenetrable fog of words/meanings/interpretations. I am absolutely not saying that "you", dear "Virgil" is doing something wrong, it's more this brain need more structure-story.

I will try to react to your last post, but a strong feeling here is that this will not be seen through, instead more covered in dense fog.

Hmm, by "lost in them", i mean if the content is acted out, expressed.

Ok, "lost in" clear.

Do re-read it and hone in on any particular bit to investigate.
i'm not aware of anybody that i guided falling into the nihilism trap, but it's not uncommon, so i was just intending to deal with it at the point where we seem to have nothing to trust. It's only when we experience that thoughts and sensations are convenient (and sometimes not so convenient) story creators, that we find out that we can totally trust life-ing. That the default works brilliantly.

You bet I read and re-read!!
Also don't understand the "default" "happy, healthy and creative". Understand the words but not why and how...

Yes, and we are at the point where we are poking at the membrane of reality, and starting to recognize that nothing is real

Membrane of reality" Like that!!
But if "nothing is real" there has to be something that "is real" to establish that. So what IS real? Touchable or not.

Ha, this "seeing the risk", is the stretching as you wake up.

Good!

I don't consider myself awake
Oh, and what will be the hallmark (that you can trust) of being awake ?

The hallmark would be for instance, the stillness, the quiet, the transparency that I've had a nibble or two of.

learning to See.
..and doing very well with this. (my story)

Not in agreement. More and more bemused.

you mean the mood or spirit you meet each day?
i mean, just keep an eye out for this.

Example of impenetrability.

Knowing that it is a story? Please clarify the above "THIS" and "all story".
Hmm, perhaps this was a bit of a jump. ..but now that we are here (looking at this) Tell me what is not story ? Is there anything at all, internally or externally that is not some interpretation happening in (the concept) of Birdman's brain ?

Sorry, same problem. I don't know what a "story" is in this context. So impossible to pin down. "Concept" apparently "interpretation of happening". Sounds more like "percieving" to me...

Birdman wrote:
I can't think of what "knowing" is right now as you put some press on it!!!
Yes, of course, it is just a convenient concept.

Ok, so there IS no knowing outside of a concept.

Birdman wrote:
information is relevant to "This bodymind will one day expire".
Just saying that even this cannot be 'for sure'. ..but even without this, it is obvious that death is nothing more than a story, from the perspective of Birdman, at this time. What say you ?

Sorry, don't agree. This biological body will for sure return to the basic elements one day. What happens to the "mind" if anything, however - a mystery.

Birdman wrote:
As seen here - the sun at least indirectly makes you feel hot
Yes, another compelling story.
A glowing orb is seen above, heat is felt. Everything else is thought stuff. Can you make anything else (about this) tangible ?

You lost me now, sorry...

Birdman wrote:
So "conditions aligning" seems to be the horse to bet on.
Yes, but even this is just a useful story. What do you reckon ?

Really no idea...

Kindest regards
hugs,
Birdman

[Birdman]

Misread so reade the following menings."Concept" apparently "interpretation of happening". Sounds more like "percieving" to me..."

[Birdman]

ERASE

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman.

More and more felt here that this inquiry in getting out of control in this end. Words with, for this one, unclear significance is used in mystifying ways.

Ok, yes, i have been going in heavily. i was under the impression that you were keeping up. Please don't be polite. Direct, explicit and immediate honesty is necessary for this investigation to 'work'. (i'm not saying that you haven't been.)
i will slow down a bit.

it's more this brain need more structure-story.

i will attempt to do this. Please give me immediate feedback if i wander.

If you mean that "knowing" is impossible then best to say so.

i can say this, but that can only lead to another belief. We need to discover if this is true. You say;

Sorry, don't agree. This biological body will for sure return to the basic elements one day.

This is a perfect example to attempt this discovery.
Now, i'm not saying that the body won't some day decay. ..and i'm also not suggesting that you stop behaving AS IF it is true.
From the perspective of the organism, can you say that what you have said is more than a belief ? (albeit a useful one)

let's say if I have built furniture my whole life I'd say I "know" how to make furniture.

Yes, and i don't suggest that you phrase it any other way.
In the context of this investigation, tell me who/what is it that knows how to make furniture ?
Would it be more accurate to say that much experience making furniture happened ?

more covered in dense fog.

We can work with fog. We just examine one bit at a time, until there is none left.

Also don't understand the "default" "happy, healthy and creative". Understand the words but not why and how...

Christian ideology that says that without imposed moral rules, that man will behave like a wild animal and wreak havoc on his fellow man. Experience here shows me that when the concepts that our cult(ure) takes as real, are seen to be nothing more than beliefs, that emotional reactions to them stop happening. This uncovers, what i call a default state. Wisdom is exposed. Without the stress that those beliefs induce, healthy, happy and creative happens.
The reason i told you this was intended to avoid the nihilism trap.
You will find this out for yourself in time.

But if "nothing is real" there has to be something that "is real" to establish that. So what IS real? Touchable or not.

Ok, sensations, before thought arrives, can be taken as real.
Can you tell me of anything else, that is not thoughts about...

The hallmark would be for instance, the stillness, the quiet, the transparency that I've had a nibble or two of.

Are you expecting that these will be permanently present ?
As a human being, you have the capacity to experience a full range of experiencing. ..and without the confinement of beliefs, probably a greater range than previously.

I don't know what a "story" is

i use the word story to point to a collection of thoughts about something (or someone)
..and when i say that there is only story, i am pointing to the fact that everything that we take as real, is our unique interpretation of sensory input or beliefs collected. (Do dispute this if it is not seen clearly)

Sounds more like "perceiving" to me...

Is perception filtered through your unique conditioning ?

We're still going pretty intensely. Tell me is we need to cut it back even more.

love

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Thank's for responding to my fit of despair.

Direct, explicit and immediate honesty is necessary for this investigation to 'work'. (i'm not saying that you haven't been.)
i will slow down a bit.

No, not keeping up. Yes, honesty happened because it was felt here that all was slipping through the fingers. No up, no down, useful or waste.

Birdman wrote:
it's more this brain need more structure-story.
i will attempt to do this. Please give me immediate feedback if i wander.

Promise!

Birdman wrote:
If you mean that "knowing" is impossible then best to say so.
i can say this, but that can only lead to another belief. We need to discover if this is true. You say;
Birdman wrote:
Sorry, don't agree. This biological body will for sure return to the basic elements one day.
This is a perfect example to attempt this discovery.
Now, i'm not saying that the body won't some day decay. ..and i'm also not suggesting that you stop behaving AS IF it is true.
From the perspective of the organism, can you say that what you have said is more than a belief ? (albeit a useful one)

"Organism", bodymind here? Seems that it is way more than a belief. A belief is usually something that is not certain or something you hold to be true despite lack of evidence - "Credo quia absurdum". In the first case: "I believe it's going to rain tomorrow." Clouds, low pressure are pointers to that will probably be the case. In the other case there is belief like "I believe in the Triune God, creator of heaven and earth" or I believe there is advanced life on some other close planet. Something that is held for true despite any "evidence". In case of the decomposition of all living beings to basic elements there is another certainty. It can be seen, touched and felt you only have to take a walk in your garden or in the bush.
So there are beliefs and beliefs, some far fetched and some with more foundations. But in the case of all living will perish and go back to where it came from, that can in my view not be considered a "belief". Glad to change my view if so happens.

Birdman wrote:
let's say if I have built furniture my whole life I'd say I "know" how to make furniture.
Yes, and i don't suggest that you phrase it any other way.
In the context of this investigation, tell me who/what is it that knows how to make furniture ?
Would it be more accurate to say that much experience making furniture happened ?

This knower of skills to make furniture..?
More accurate than saying "I know how to make furniture"? Maybe, in the context of this investigation it does. But what's the problem with "this wood man knows how to build furniture!"?

Birdman wrote:
more covered in dense fog.
We can work with fog. We just examine one bit at a time, until there is none left.

Great! Let's do that.

Birdman wrote:
Also don't understand the "default" "happy, healthy and creative". Understand the words but not why and how...
Christian ideology that says that without imposed moral rules, that man will behave like a wild animal and wreak havoc on his fellow man. Experience here shows me that when the concepts that our cult(ure) takes as real, are seen to be nothing more than beliefs, that emotional reactions to them stop happening. This uncovers, what i call a default state. Wisdom is exposed. Without the stress that those beliefs induce, healthy, happy and creative happens.
The reason i told you this was intended to avoid the nihilism trap.
You will find this out for yourself in time.

We will have to come back to that!
Are you talking about Australias and many other countries sad history when it comes to wreaking havoc on its fellow man despite "high christian moral standards"?
Long to find this out...

Birdman wrote:
But if "nothing is real" there has to be something that "is real" to establish that. So what IS real? Touchable or not.
Ok, sensations, before thought arrives, can be taken as real.
Can you tell me of anything else, that is not thoughts about...

I take that as anything else besides sensations, before thought arrives...
Difficult, the only I can come up with is the all encompassing drive to protect ones offspring. Seems that it is thought free, sturdy and very direct.

Birdman wrote:
The hallmark would be for instance, the stillness, the quiet, the transparency that I've had a nibble or two of.
Are you expecting that these will be permanently present ?
As a human being, you have the capacity to experience a full range of experiencing. ..and without the confinement of beliefs, probably a greater range than previously.

My expectations are very, very low now and I really don't have any clue any longer. Not permanence anyway.

Birdman wrote:
I don't know what a "story" is
i use the word story to point to a collection of thoughts about something (or someone)

Good explanation! Seem very closely related to "concept".

Birdman wrote:
Sounds more like "perceiving" to me...
Is perception filtered through your unique conditioning ?

Ah, tried to correct that one in an added post. I misread it first.
You wrote: "Tell me what is not story ? Is there anything at all, internally or externally that is not some interpretation happening in (the concept) of Birdman's brain?"
I read an "of" between "interpretation" and "happening"
Well, perception is processes in the brain that interprets info from the senses. But maybe on a more basic level than conditioning. In short, possibly no, but I don't know.

Hugs
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

A belief is usually something that is not certain or something you hold to be true despite lack of evidence

Yes, but in the way i am using the term, i am ruling out evidence that is thought based. ..and i am looking from the perspective of the organism.
Is it true that the organism that we are calling Birdman, only knows of death from hearing or reading about it ?
Don't look to second hand information as evidence. The only evidence i am prepared to accept is pre-thought sensation. Everything else is thoughts about things. Not the things themselves.

But in the case of all living will perish and go back to where it came from, that can in my view not be considered a "belief".

Yes, it is a compelling story. ..and it is most likely true, but all this is beside the point of this investigation. The only thing that matters, is, can it be verified by pre-thought experiencing ?
Can you see that apart from this experiencing, that there is only thoughts about things ?
How can you verify that you have a body ?
While you are seeing or feeling your right foot, can you know that your left elbow exists ?
i know that from the perspective of consensus reality that this seems absurd, but there is a very real point to be recognized.

Glad to change my view if so happens.

Those views are useful for communication and for navigating society. They simply don't hold up under intense scrutiny.
You think that outside the room where you currently are, that there is more house, and that outside the house there is more world, but what if quantum science is right and all of that stuff is created as you interact with it ?
i know that this is extreme, and i'm not saying that it is or is not accurate. i'm simply saying that we can't actually know.
What is the point of all of this ?
Well at a much more mundane level, it is when we take what is actually a belief to be real, and have an emotional reaction to it, that suffering is generated.
Just as when we take a bunch of thoughts about a Self to be an actual Self, all sorts of problems come into play.
What is being awake ? When we recognize thoughts for what they are. Ideas, concepts, stories.
When we accept that other people are our interpretation of sensory input.
When we recognize that the whole world is our own experiencing. It's all subjective. That nothing is actually objective.

But what's the problem with "this wood man knows how to build furniture!"?

No problem at all in a social context. ..but at the level where we are investigating the statement is composed almost completely of labels.

Well, perception is processes in the brain that interprets info from the senses. But maybe on a more basic level than conditioning.

i would say that perception is influenced by conditioning, by DNA, and by circumstances. ..and that it is unique to every person.

Let's just stay with this until it is clear.
Rather than use the mind, and logic to check this for accuracy, use direct experiencing. Try it out.
Can you know, other than by thought, that the Statue of Liberty actually exists, in this moment ?

love and compassion

vince

[Birdman]

Dear Vince!

Thank's for bearing with all sleep here.

Birdman wrote:
A belief is usually something that is not certain or something you hold to be true despite lack of evidence
Yes, but in the way i am using the term, i am ruling out evidence that is thought based. ..and i am looking from the perspective of the organism.
Is it true that the organism that we are calling Birdman, only knows of death from hearing or reading about it ?
Don't look to second hand information as evidence. The only evidence i am prepared to accept is pre-thought sensation. Everything else is thoughts about things. Not the things themselves.

Birdman wrote:
But in the case of all living will perish and go back to where it came from, that can in my view not be considered a "belief".
Yes, it is a compelling story. ..and it is most likely true, but all this is beside the point of this investigation. The only thing that matters, is, can it be verified by pre-thought experiencing ?
Can you see that apart from this experiencing, that there is only thoughts about things ?

The same with "pre-thought experiencing", also same as dE?
With these strict postulates, most of what "seems to be known" are "thoughts about", yes.
When you say "from the perspective of the organism" do you mean the same as Direct Experience?
Birdman also knows death from seeing it happen in both people and animals, besides the effects of it, decomposing etc... No bodymind can of course know of death by dE. So with this strict definition of knowing I guess seeing it happen to another living being does not count as "knowing". (But that is something to keep quiet about unless you don't want to be looked upon as a very weird person ;) This is where consensus life comes in I suppose.

Birdman wrote:
But in the case of all living will perish and go back to where it came from, that can in my view not be considered a "belief".
Yes, it is a compelling story. ..and it is most likely true, but all this is beside the point of this investigation. The only thing that matters, is, can it be verified by pre-thought experiencing ?
Can you see that apart from this experiencing, that there is only thoughts about things ?

The same with "pre-thought experiencing", also same as dE?
With these strict postulates, most of what "seems to be known" are "thoughts about", yes.

How can you verify that you have a body ?

Verifying the body by direct experiencing it.

While you are seeing or feeling your right foot, can you know that your left elbow exists ?

Ha! Seems impossible to dE both foot and elbow at the same time!
I think I'm getting what you're getting at but have to provoke my "common sense" by provoking you.

Birdman wrote:
Glad to change my view if so happens.
Those views are useful for communication and for navigating society. They simply don't hold up under intense scrutiny.

I realise that!

i know that this is extreme, and i'm not saying that it is or is not accurate. i'm simply saying that we can't actually know.
What is the point of all of this ?

As I said before, that's why I'm here in the first place, to know whatever can be know, to realise the no self.
Yes! Agree with that, something resonates within.

Just as when we take a bunch of thoughts about a Self to be an actual Self, all sorts of problems come into play.
What is being awake ? When we recognize thoughts for what they are. Ideas, concepts, stories.

Yes, what is being awake? Definitely not the thought infested self. Can't say more. Would only be conceptual. So better be quiet.

When we accept that other people are our interpretation of sensory input.
When we recognize that the whole world is our own experiencing. It's all subjective. That nothing is actually objective.

This is hard. Subjective experiencing but at the same time not personal?

Birdman wrote:
But what's the problem with "this wood man knows how to build furniture!"?
No problem at all in a social context. ..but at the level where we are investigating the statement is composed almost completely of labels.

I can realise that, but struggling with words now. The question was something like "in the context of this investigation, tell me who/what is it that knows how to make furniture?" So how to say that without labels? You can't! So only to keep quiet I guess.

Let's just stay with this until it is clear.

Lovely! The label of "Structure" happens.

Rather than use the mind, and logic to check this for accuracy, use direct experiencing. Try it out.
Can you know, other than by thought, that the Statue of Liberty actually exists, in this moment ?

No, there is no way to do that! If we're talking dE.

Kindest regards, hugs
Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

The same with "pre-thought experiencing", also same as dE?

Yes, i am using them interchangeably. The same thing.

When you say "from the perspective of the organism" do you mean the same as Direct Experience?

Yes.

So with this strict definition of knowing I guess seeing it happen to another living being does not count as "knowing".

Correct. DE can describe seeing an inanimate body. Then story might say that it is without life. Even the body that is apparently without life, might just be unconscious. So the story part might or might not be accurate.

But that is something to keep quiet about unless you don't want to be looked upon as a very weird person

Certainly. ..and there is no need to broadcast what is seen. Further to this it may be useful for communication purposes to behave AS IF the consensus is accurate. To do this will still avoid any negative emotional response to the story.

most of what "seems to be known" are "thoughts about", yes.

Can you come up with anything that can be known for sure ?

common sense

This is a really interesting term. If we look at it literally, it uses the word sense, but it actually refers to concept. Commonly agreed upon concepts. Even the word sensible refers to logic.
But again, it actually refers to consensual, agreed, definitions of reality.
Language is one of the most powerful conditioning agents.

something resonates within.

Say a bit more about this.

Yes, what is being awake? Definitely not the thought infested self.

The story of self can persist, and as long as it is seen to be happening, then the power to suck you into maladaptive behaviors weakens and eventually becomes entirely impotent.

Can't say more. Would only be conceptual. So better be quiet.

Conceptual stuff can be useful. Actually indispensable for communication purposes, and for description.

love

vince

[Birdman]

DearVince!

Birdman wrote:
So with this strict definition of knowing I guess seeing it happen to another living being does not count as "knowing".
Correct. DE can describe seeing an inanimate body. Then story might say that it is without life. Even the body that is apparently without life, might just be unconscious. So the story part might or might not be accurate.

Dont want to pick nits but I guess it doesn't matter either if the body is seen not to be breathing. So beyond unconscious. But that is also "story", not "known" in this strict meaning? Difficult to digest...
(Came to think about the "Dead Parrot sketch" from Monty Python :)

Birdman wrote:
most of what "seems to be known" are "thoughts about", yes.
Can you come up with anything that can be known for sure ?

The sun is shining. A sensation of hunger arises in the body. Very insecure about this..

Birdman wrote:
something resonates within.
Say a bit more about this.

Can't find the context but believe it was how language tricks us into believing thoughts about "me", as truth. So seeing through language seem very important and powerful. Here maybe the power of words has been underestimated? In christian tradition God IS the word even. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

Birdman wrote:
Can't say more. Would only be conceptual. So better be quiet.
Conceptual stuff can be useful. Actually indispensable for communication purposes, and for description.

Yes realise that, but when you ask "What is being awake?", I have nothing to come up with besides "awareness" or "consciousness". Words again with an unclear meaning here. So I don't use them. If you think it's important I'd be interested in your view of these two concepts.

BTW, Ramana Maharshi and other people in non-dual context speak about the "Self" (as it seem to me) as the "awakened", the most refined and pure consciousness. Or maybe it is a religious overlay? The Atman? Maybe not important here but somewhat puzzling.

Have experienced a degree of "space" the last days but not the quietness and deep peace felt before. No nihilistic or cynical obsession. There still is a "me" albeit more quiet. As I said earlier, have no idea what to expect. Seeing what happens, what unfolds.

Love and gratitude

Birdman

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Birdman,

Can you come up with anything that can be known for sure ?
The sun is shining. A sensation of hunger arises in the body.

Sun is a label. Shining is a concept. Hunger is a label. Body is a concept. All of these are useful for communication, but none are accurate from the perspective of DE.
i'm not out to correct you, but for this exercise it is critical that you see the difference.
Can you say these things again as though it was from pure experiencing. No labels or concepts.

seeing through language seem very important and powerful. Here maybe the power of words has been underestimated?

Yes, very much so. It is almost like trying to explain water to a fish.
Our language has evolved to reflect the consensus reality. Words don't exist for what is outside it.
A classic example of this is the abstract noun. eg; truth, reality, university, self (and all personal pronouns) etc.
We talk about them as if they were a thing, when they are actually a convenient label to describe a collection of characteristics.

but when you ask "What is being awake?"

That was a rhetorical question, followed by my story of what i see.

If you think it's important I'd be interested in your view of these two concepts.

Ah, excellent that you recognize them as concepts. i use "awareness" in the literal sense of noticing. Using it with a capital A, as something mystical akin to a new age god, is to be avoided. That can't be known, and the word is corrupted as much as the word Enlightenment or God is.
Same for Consciousness. To be conscious of.. is to be aware of.. is to notice. This is as far as i go.

Ramana Maharshi and other people in non-dual context speak about the "Self" (as it seem to me) as the "awakened", the most refined and pure consciousness. Or maybe it is a religious overlay?

Agreed. A religious overlay.
Non-duality was the last adventure here before waking up. It contributed great possibilities for waking up for me. ..but in the end, turned out to be just another church.

Have experienced a degree of "space" the last days but not the quietness and deep peace felt before.

There will, most likely be many iterations of this, happening while ever that brain operates.
Good stuff. Any confirming experience is welcome.

There still is a "me" albeit more quiet.

Do you mean "a sense of me" ? Is that why you put me in quotes ?

Hmm, i'm back to telling you stuff, instead of asking you questions.
Are there any areas that you can think of that we can explore (while we wait for grace to strike)

love

vince