Need help seeing the truth.

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

These questions confused me a bit so please bear with me.

How does it feel now, when you read those words?

No different than when it was first posted.

What would seeing the truth of 'no self' be like? Can the absence of something be seen?

It doesn't seem that I can answer this until I have seen it myself. Simply looking for something that is not there, then not finding, can be considered the same seeing the absence of something.

Can you distinguish what is real and what is not? What does that mean, if you put it in other words? Can you give examples?

What is real? Everything around me, including thoughts. What is not real? The false sense of identity that claims ownership of the experience but again, this is only understood intellectually. Can I put it in other words? I am honestly not sure how to answer this.

In the aliveness of what is, in this uninterpreted moment, what is 'inner peace'? Is it a state? Is it a mental picture? Is it a concept that is present or not present?

After a certain amount of just looking around, everything seems to be more "alive" or rather more colorful; is this what you mean by aliveness? After a few minutes or so, this goes away. In regards to inner peace, it could be seen as a "state" but I believe it to be more a certain level of understanding.

If this moment presents 'inner peace', where is 'inner war'? 
If this moment presents 'inner war', where is 'inner peace'? 
Does THIS have an alternative?

I would not classify it as "inner peace" or "inner war" but rather "neutral grounds."


Thanks.

[Freddi]

It doesn't seem that I can answer this until I have seen it myself. Simply looking for something that is not there, then not finding, can be considered the same seeing the absence of something.

True, but I wonder if you expect to see 'something' called 'no self'?
Say if I ask you to check if there is a unicorn, you will take a look and won't find it. Will you expect to see a 'no-unicorn'?

What is real? Everything around me, including thoughts

Question this. Are thoughts real? If so what is verifiable, tangible real about them?
Can you find one and bring me proof of its existence?

In regards to inner peace, it could be seen as a "state" but I believe it to be more a certain level of understanding.

Are you looking for a certain level of understanding?

Thank you

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

First and foremost, I want to thank you for being patient with me. I really do appreciate it!

Moving forward --

True, but I wonder if you expect to see 'something' called 'no self'? 
Say if I ask you to check if there is a unicorn, you will take a look and won't find it. Will you expect to see a 'no-unicorn'? 

Well not really in all honesty. I have been approaching this from the "unicorn" perspective all along. An excerpt from something I had written for myself a few months ago best describes this: "If I were to look around right now for Superman, Spider-Man or even Wonder Woman, it should only take me a few seconds. Chances are that I won't even have to look at all."

What I would expect to see, is something along the same lines as the realization that I had when we did the labeling exercise, "Does the visual experience of the squiggles on the paper represent accurately the 'thing' called 'table'?" That in and out itself was extremely helpful and I have been applying that concept to everything imaginable within my field of awareness.

Question this. Are thoughts real? If so what is verifiable, tangible real about them? 
Can you find one and bring me proof of its existence?

Thoughts themselves are real. Now, are their contents or points of reference real? That itself is a different story. Some thoughts point to what is real, others point towards ideals/concepts/other thoughts. For example, the thought about the "body" or a "car" per say; both of those are real albeit the thought itself is unable to describe that full experience. Now, a thought about a character from a comic book, the thought itself may be real, but the contents of that thought are not.

Are you looking for a certain level of understanding?

Correct. Is this not the right approach? I seem to believe that once this is seen through, and realized, then something along these lines will surface: "Okay, things are how they are and it can be clearly seen beyond any doubt."


Thanks!

[Freddi]

First and foremost, I want to thank you for being patient with me. I really do appreciate it!

Not at all! It is a real pleasure to walk these steps of exploration with you.

I have been approaching this from the "unicorn" perspective all along. An excerpt from something I had written for myself a few months ago best describes this: "If I were to look around right now for Superman, Spider-Man or even Wonder Woman, it should only take me a few seconds. Chances are that I won't even have to look at all."

Much like for Superman, Batman etc, the question is ... have you EVER seen, heard, touched, tasted, experienced a self, or does it always have to be 'remembered', in a thought?

What I would expect to see, is something along the same lines as the realization that I had when we did the labeling exercise, "Does the visual experience of the squiggles on the paper represent accurately the 'thing' called 'table'?" That in and out itself was extremely helpful and I have been applying that concept to everything imaginable within my field of awareness.

Keep LOOKING. Squiggles on a page do not reflect the experience of objects, sounds we learned to bark to communicate (say out loud D-O-O-R, H-A-N-D and listen to the raw noise).
Do the sounds reproduce faithfully the portions of experiences pointed to?
And without these squiggles, these sounds we bark, what's left of these portions of reality?
Are they still separate? Where is the boundary between them?

Thoughts themselves are real. Now, are their contents or points of reference real? That itself is a different story. Some thoughts point to what is real, others point towards ideals/concepts/other thoughts. For example, the thought about the "body" or a "car" per say; both of those are real albeit the thought itself is unable to describe that full experience. Now, a thought about a character from a comic book, the thought itself may be real, but the contents of that thought are not.

If I get you correctly, thoughts are perceived, in that way they are real. You also say the content, even if it points to the experience, is unable to describe the full experience. Too right!
1. Place a fruit in front of you. Now close your eyes and imagine it, picture its colours, its shape, then imagine you pick it up, touch it, taste it.
2. Open your eyes, and LOOK, like you've never seen it before. Take it and touch it, taste it.
Describe the differences.
> Is the content of the thought of the fruit REAL?

Would you say that the content of the thought 'I', 'me' falls in the first of your two categories or the second (the comic book one)?

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

I am running into some delays over here due to unrelated issues. I am still looking nonetheless, but I will follow up on this in the afternoon. It feels like I need more time on the last two here anyways, so it works out.


Thanks!

[Freddi]

Of course, thanks for letting me know!

[Heketi]

Much like for Superman, Batman etc, the question is ... have you EVER seen, heard, touched, tasted, experienced a self, or does it always have to be 'remembered', in a thought?

It always needs to be remembered in a thought.

Keep LOOKING. Squiggles on a page do not reflect the experience of objects, sounds we learned to bark to communicate (say out loud D-O-O-R, H-A-N-D and listen to the raw noise). 
Do the sounds reproduce faithfully the portions of experiences pointed to?

The sounds do not reproduce the full experience of what it points to; just an idea, or rather, a "thought" of it.

And without these squiggles, these sounds we bark, what's left of these portions of reality? 
Are they still separate? Where is the boundary between them?

I am not so sure I am understanding this question. If we remove the squiggles/sounds, what's left is the raw reality as I see it. The sounds/squiggles are separate from the raw reality itself. Is what separates them not thought?

1. Place a fruit in front of you. Now close your eyes and imagine it, picture its colours, its shape, then imagine you pick it up, touch it, taste it. 
2. Open your eyes, and LOOK, like you've never seen it before. Take it and touch it, taste it. 
Describe the differences. 
> Is the content of the thought of the fruit REAL? 

It is not the same experience. The contents of the thought (the experience of the thought, not the actual content itself) are not the same at all. When I imagine holding the fruit (a cherry in this case) and tasting it, well, the experience of that is lesser than the real experience of the actual fruit. The taste is not the same (can't taste it) and neither is the weight (can't feel it).

Would you say that the content of the thought 'I', 'me' falls in the first of your two categories or the second (the comic book one)? 

This would fall under the second category (comics).


Thank you.

[Freddi]

I am not so sure I am understanding this question. If we remove the squiggles/sounds, what's left is the raw reality as I see it. The sounds/squiggles are separate from the raw reality itself. Is what separates them not thought?

OK let me reformulate it: If we let go of thoughts (and associated labels, sounds), what's left? One happening or many happenings?
Are there still some boundaries? Is WHAT IS naturally pre-cut? Ot is it like an ever moving, ever-shifting dance?
Are 'we', thoughts, sounds and squiggles also part of THIS dance?

Thank you!

Fred

[Heketi]

If we let go of thoughts (and associated labels, sounds), what's left? One happening or many happenings?
Are there still some boundaries? Is WHAT IS naturally pre-cut? Ot is it like an ever moving, ever-shifting dance? 
Are 'we', thoughts, sounds and squiggles also part of THIS dance?

I am a having a difficult time seeing this; letting go of thoughts and labels that is. Intellectually I could come up and theorize a few answers but that's not the point of this.

[Freddi]

Hi Heketi,

I am a having a difficult time seeing this; letting go of thoughts and labels that is. Intellectually I could come up and theorize a few answers but that's not the point of this.

Maybe you're trying too hard? This 'letting go of thoughts and labels' does not require any effort. It is the opposite of effort.
Leave the thought stream aside for a moment, bring your attention back to the breath.
Take a good look and observe, in silence, what is seen, what is heard, touched, felt. Notice also the seeing, the hearing, the touching, the sensing.
Bring your attention back to what is alive right now, in this uninterpreted moment, what comes up?
Is it many things or is it one flow, one movement, one dance? Don't try and SEE something, just LOOK.
Would you say that there are boundaries between sight and hearing? Or is it more like one big river?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

I am still trying to see this so I may need a bit more time. What I have started to notice and see more and more as I do this, is the habitual compulsive thinking that the mind is doing in the background.

[Freddi]

Hi Heketi

What I have started to notice and see more and more as I do this, is the habitual compulsive thinking that the mind is doing in the background.

Great! Keep LOOKING.
I invite you to go and take a walk into nature, then sit somewhere quiet. Take a notebook with you and write down all that is perceived without discrimination, without selection. Just what is alive, right now.
Maybe a sound? Maybe a chill in the air? Maybe something flying by? Anything that is seen/heard/touched/felt etc through the senses.
If a thought comes, acknowledge it and let it pass. Let me have this slice of life.
Notice just how the labelling mind has a quick description or explanation for all this happening.
Then consider these questions:
1. Can a separate 'I', 'me' be experienced, in this happening?
2. Are 'you' in control of all this? Or is it all happening on automatic?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

1. Can a separate 'I', 'me' be experienced, in this happening?

I am still having a difficult time answering this in all honesty. The 1st thoughts that come to mind are "a separate 'I' from the one already perceived? No." But I know that this is not what is being asked here. There's still the feeling that there is someone watching this.

2. Are 'you' in control of all this? Or is it all happening on automatic?

I am not in control of any of it. It's almost like an endless waltz.

[Freddi]

The 1st thoughts that come to mind are "a separate 'I' from the one already perceived? No."

You're right, that's not what's being asked here. We're not looking into thoughts.

Could you let me have the slice of life you wrote down while doing the exercise?

Thanks!

Fred

[Heketi]

Hi Fred,

I will follow up on this tomorrow as soon as I can. I'm doing some work travel and had some significant delays so I am going to get some rest for tomorrow. I want to look at this then and not when I am half asleep.


Thank you.