What is

[Anigma]

What brings you to Liberation Unleashed?:

Heard about it from a friend. I want to be able to see things as they are

What are you looking for? What do you expect from this?:

to understand the structure of thought, the witness, when i use judgement and when its truly equanimous

What is your background in terms of seeking and inquiry?:

I have been doing Yoga and Pranayaam for over 10 years now.
Got into TM 3 years ago. The seeking grew ever since.
I went for 10 day Vipassana Meditation last year. Since then use that for medi technique
Everymorning with the Yoga and Pranayaam practice (approx 1 hour) before meditating, i watch audio/vid of masters, watch batgap.

How ready are you to question your beliefs about who you are and see the truth no matter what? On a scale from one to ten (ten being most ready). : 8

[Andrei]

Hi Anigma,

And welcome to LU. Maybe I can help you on your journey.
Before we get started though I`m wondering about the 8. Is it because you`re being shy or is it because you feel there are things that you need to protect or not get in too deep. I ask because if you want to see through the ilusion of the self you will very likely have to question e v e r y t h i n g. Burn everything down.
Would that be something you feel comfortable with?

Andrei

[Anigma]

Hi Andrei, looking forward.
I am a bit shy and also experience self-doubt , the 8 was un-intentional.
I will do the best to burn it down :-)

[Andrei]

Experiencing selfdoubt... I wouldn`t say that`s a bad thing, not in here at least :))

Ok, so, in short what we do here is helping people see through the illusion of the self. At this point thinking/reasoning/logic is not something to help you, on the contrary. Thinking might bring you to the gate, might make you understand what "no self" is all about but will not take you to the other side, simply because this is not how the mind works. In order to go past the gate you will have to leave the mind out of it.
What you do need here is something we call direct experience: There are raw experiences: hearing, seeing, touching, smelling, and tasting. There are sensations in the body (hunger, thirst, or pain). This is what we refer to as direct experience.

During this convo I will ask questions/ give you pointers, etc. In case I go too fast please let me know. Also if there are any neclarities, if you have any questions, any topic you would like to spend more time with do let me know. This is your journey so walk it at your own pace.

What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?
(I know the above looks like a question you already answered but I would like to read your expectations from a less mind-related perspective.)

When I say "There is no you", is there any tension, any arising fear?

PS: during our conversation, while waiting for my answers to your posts, feel free to browse through the LU site, read the articles, or read through the other threads on this forum or the Gateless gatecrashers book which was quite helpful in my case.

[Anigma]

so i want to be able to experience the "truth". There are glimpses i have got, where i lose my "self", not living in this illusion, i want to experience it more fully. i dont know how it may change me. i just feel the urge to know the truth.

No, i dont feel any fear arising or tension when you say "there is no you".

Got it, thank you.

[Andrei]

When you use the term "I" or "me", what do you mean by it?
---
Is there an “I” in direct experience?
---
Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?
Get up… walk slowly… is there a controller that controls walking?
or is there just walking?

[Anigma]

i as i identify with my mind and my body?

my mind makes a decision to go someplace and then the body gets up and goes because there is a will. Breathing is more by reflex, the mind doesnt have to think of doing it.

[Andrei]

i as i identify with my mind and my body?

So by "I" you mean your body or mind or both or even something else?
In order to have a place to start deconstructing the "I" you need to figure out what the "I" is.

and again with the Is there an “I” in direct experience? question
in direct experience, which I already explained to you what is, where is the "I"?
...or to reword the question in order to help you a bit: when there is no "you" (no thoughts of "you" for instance) where are "you"? is there a "you"?

my mind makes a decision to go someplace and then the body gets up and goes

how does your mind makes the decision? please explain the process step by step
and while we`re at it, what do you mean by mind?

Breathing is more by reflex, the mind doesnt have to think of doing it.

i think it`s more like your thoughts are telling you that the answer is so obvious one need not look too deep into it, and that is precisely the problem, you need to get to the bottom of things in order to move on
you need to question all those concepts you developed - thoughts/mind/body - and maybe even define them anew, do not let yourself be trapped into thinking that concepts are anything more than some labels which might not even describe the truth - because what you take for granted is keeping you in the not-knowing. If what you knew was helping, you wouldnt be here would you?

body gets up and goes because there is a will

thats a good place to start - for this next exercise leave the body and what it does for now and tell me about the will. How is the will formed? where does it come from? again, dont try to come up with a logical explanation, tell me what you feel, what you see happening when you imagine this "will".

also, you told me that you do meditation. Is it the type of meditation without any sort of noise/distraction/guiding where you just clear your mind and stay in silence?
because that might actually help you in this quest.

[Anigma]

Ya, looking deeper not not answering the ques technically, the "I" seems to exist when the thought arises.

The thought arises in the mind, maybe based on a sensation eg. dryness in the mouth, thirst, thought created to go get water; then the body gets up and walks. so at that point only walking is happening.

About will - a thought created based on a body sensation of what i feel or what i hear /see. Example i see bright sunshine, check the time and it is close to lunch and a thought is created that a walk will be good at this time. then i go walking.

so where-ever i notice an "i" it is associated with a thought.

Yes the meditation i do is focussing on my breath and sensations that arise in the body.

[Andrei]

the "I" seems to exist when the thought arises.

Perfect.

The thought arises in the mind, maybe based on a sensation eg. dryness in the mouth, thirst, thought created to go get water; then the body gets up and walks. so at that point only walking is happening.
[...]
Example i see bright sunshine, check the time and it is close to lunch and a thought is created that a walk will be good at this time. then i go walking.

So, you`re saying that the thought comes first (or second after a sensation) and then the body does the action controlled by the thought.
What about automatic actions, like turning on the kettle to make tea when you`re thirsty without pondering if you wanted tea or coffee? Or even breathing - you don`t think to exhale inhale all the time, if ever.
So are you sure thoughts precede actions? Or is it more like the body feels thirsty and then a thought appear out of nowhere and simply agrees with the body and hijacks the resolution: "I am thirsty. I made the body go make tea. Muhahahaaa", but the body was going to do the tea or the breathing regardless whether there was a thought appearing or not?

so where-ever i notice an "i" it is associated with a thought.

Good. So "I"/self/ego/etc is just a thought and has no existance outside the actual thought. [For the record I will just call it the "I-thought" from now on in order to differentiate it from the other thoughts. I`m a bit of a control freak if you haven`t noticed :D]

And while we`re on the topic of thoughts:
Are you the thinker of thoughts? Can you think and choose a thought? Give it a try.

Yes the meditation i do is focussing on my breath and sensations that arise in the body.

Well then meditation equals direct experience so now you know precisely how to look.
Also meditation is what helped me "gate" when I did, so I`m all for it.
All this guiding and looking was fine and dandy but in order for the change to actually take place I had to enter deep meditation and see that which kept me "trapped" dissipate and hence set me free.

[Anigma]

Well it seems like some actions need a choice to be made and some actions go on without thinking. Breathing certainly doesnt have the I thought. Also if a mosquito is biting me, i dont think but my hand will raise to slap it. But some actions are preceded by thought. Like if I am thirsty should i get water, i've had too much tea today etc.
somewhere is these actions, thought wants to control how the body acts.

No, doesnt look like choose thoughts, but they arise based on some sensory input. Sometimes and image pops up randomly and then a thought story gets created .

Thats great :-) hope to get untrapped

[Andrei]

Well it seems like some actions need a choice to be made and some actions go on without thinking. Breathing certainly doesnt have the I thought. Also if a mosquito is biting me, i dont think but my hand will raise to slap it. But some actions are preceded by thought. Like if I am thirsty should i get water, i've had too much tea today etc.
somewhere is these actions, thought wants to control how the body acts.

Sounds good. No need to stress on this because it`s not even LU related work. "Gating/liberation" implies not identifying with body/thoughts/sensations/outcomes/etc. Thats all. Everything else is bonus! :))
So whether you`ll want to stick to that or deepen the knowledge it`s up to you. I always had a more analytical mind - not necesarily a blessing btw :)) - so I went that extra mile. Always found a certain freedom in de-constructing everything until there was nothing. There`s a beauty there in being nothing... hard to put into words

No, doesnt look like choose thoughts, but they arise based on some sensory input.

And is there any identification with the sensory input? Basically what I`m asking is: If in this whole thoughts/sensations/emotions processes is there anything that feels "personal" at all?

Thats great :-) hope to get untrapped

I think you`re getting pretty close.

Moving on:
Is there a you that experiences experiences or do experiences simply happen? Is there a watcher separate from the seen or is "watching" simply happening?

And a short exercise:
Take two objects/possibilities, of which you might ordinarily choose either e.g. blue pen or black pen, salt and pepper, then sit and see if you can find the choice-point where you could go either way. Describe how choosing happens.

[Anigma]

I would like to go deeper, but at this point, it seems like sometimes thoughts control my action, and sometimes action just happens.

Again, sometimes no identification with sensory inputs and sometimes there is. When pain is bothering my back or I'm getting too cold, it seems personal, it effects me.

I notice that as soon as i have a thought when i am watching, it creates a seperateness, otherwise i am one with watching.

I did an experiment with 2 pens, blue and black. I just picked randomly.
But with salt/pepper, i was short of salt, so a thought arose to indicate that i should get salt and hence i picked up the salt dispenser. So the choosing happens on my need, or convenience or completely randomly.

Apologize for the delay in response, was out yesterday.

[Andrei]

sometimes no identification with sensory inputs and sometimes there is. When pain is bothering my back or I'm getting too cold, it seems personal, it effects me.

Please reread what you just said here and redo this whole situation using direct experience.
So there is a pain in the back. The sensory input to the brain makes you pay attention to the place your body sends you a distress signal from.
Now, what is "personal" in this whole scenario?
Is there a sensation of me-ness or an I-thought appearing hijacking the situation?

Whatever is it that feels "personal" it`s a sign that`s where you need to turn your attention to.

I notice that as soon as i have a thought when i am watching, it creates a seperateness, otherwise i am one with watching.

That is good seeing.

So the choosing happens on my need, or convenience or completely randomly.

All right, as long as there is no "you" making the choices, or thinking the thoughts.


Let`s talk a bit more about the body.
Does the body experience sensations and thought or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

[Anigma]

Actually not personal initially till a thought comes for eg. what did i do, when did this start, will i need a surgerey, let me get a pain killer or change my position etc. The sensation itself doesnt have a me-ness but typically it very quickly gives rise to the I thought.

I cant say that for sure. Body is the vocab i use for the physical manifestation of the being, the one that senses. The senses are real, they stay. The thoughts are temporarily created , i wonder where they are occuring, they go away as soon as i am in the present/now. they may just be some energy?