My imagined thread

[Florisness]

It's also becoming very obvious that experience isn't owned by anything. It's like these sensations are just floating around in nothing

[Canfora]

these things need to be taken experientially right?

Yes, thoughts are always a (after) story.

How does this seeing work? Is it just that everything needs to be known or seen as not I or is there some sudden seeing luck involved?

How do you know if something exists or not?
If I tell you there is a elephant flying outside your house, will you believe me?
Yes, no, maybe?
We both can imagine flying elephants on the sky.
Will these thoughts manifest in reality?
Why are thoughts about the existence of an I so easy to believe?
If you compare your ideas about you with what is here/now, can you find something that matches a you?
Can you experience a you in any way, shape or form?
Have a look.
What do you see?
What do you not see?
What can you see when you are not thinking?

[Florisness]

HA! I noticed that there was a sense that experience was claimed, and couldn't work around it so to speak. I'll share what helped dissolve this, because maybe it's useful for you or others.
I saw a white piece of paper and imagined that color white being the only thing there was. Being with this for a sec I could easily see 'no, this experience isn't owned by anything.' I let the vision extend to the full view, and could see that this vision-experience isn't owned by anything, and extended that to the sound and sensation. It worked and it felt immediately much more open, then I just went alone and imagined "my" history and asked if it was personal or owned, no it wasn't, and than asked 'is this life owned?' and NOPE it's not.

[Florisness]

1) Why are thoughts about the existence of an I so easy to believe?
2) If you compare your ideas about you with what is here/now, can you find something that matches a you?
3) Can you experience a you in any way, shape or form?
Have a look.
What do you see?
What do you not see?
What can you see when you are not thinking?

1)Just because it's conditioned to be real.
2)Well I don't know because I'm a bit lost in what 'I' means. Most thoughts about I are just thoughts of the body. However if I imagine the whole body vanishing I can see that that wouldn't really change anything.
3) If I turn 'I' in 'an I who lives' it's a bit easier for me to work with, no such an I can not be experienced.

Yesterday I did that self made-up exercise which I talked about above, I woke up in the middle of the night and decided to improve the method. If you wish I can share the uhh method, not sure if it's useful for others. Feeling a bit odd now, life or experience definitely seems less personal and more just floating in space. Body feels a bit weird too, not sure if I'm just sick or it's caused by this shift haha. I notice that the body feels warm, ooo and I notice that an headache is coming up, hmm yea maybe I'm just getting sick.

Can you give a suggestion of the following? I'm not sure what to do with this.. If you don't wish to answer that's fine too. I'm not really sure what to do, and I thought maybe I'll take on a new study than I have enough spare time to focus on this enlightenment business. It's not that I'm very excited about studying but even less of a fan of doing a job at the moment. But I was wondering if It's not very likely that I'll forsake that study when (or if) enlightenment happens. That's why I heard a couple of times, that people often just sit in their living room for months/years. If that's true it would be pretty pointless to even go studying in the first place.

[Canfora]

Since you've asked my advice I'll give it. Don't sit on your ass more time than needed.
Studying sounds good. Doing a job sounds good too.

What are your reasons for wanting enlightenment? What do you think enlightenment is?

[Florisness]

Oh sorry what I meant was that I heard that after enlightenment a lot of people stop doing whatever they were doing (job, study etc) and just like sit in there living room for months. Is that true? Why I was asking your help about this is because I'm not sure how to choose.. my usual method for decisions is thinking, but that's a bit of a crappy way to make these decisions right?
Why enlightenment? Not sure. I don't have much other interest anymore except this.. I have nothing else to do. I could never live a "normal" life anymore knowing that it's all self deception without trying to get rid of that.

[Canfora]

I'm not sure what you mean with this "I could never live a "normal" life anymore knowing that it's all self deception without trying to get rid of that". Are you saying you're living a normal life and you think that if you get enlightened, you will stop living a normal life? Or that you will be suddenly extra-ordinary? Uh? How do you expect life to be if you see there in no you?

[Florisness]

I mean I don't want to do the common life where you are chronicly unhappy, because that's how it seems to be for the most people. It looks like people are trying to struggle through life instead of living it. And it seems clear that the cause of it is lying and avoiding. Yes I think that's the biggest motivator: to stop struggling through life and towards living it. And yes I'm aware that that motivation implies that there is an I who lives.

[Canfora]

And yes I'm aware that that motivation implies that there is an I who lives.

I don't think motivation implies that there is an I. Everything is happening as it is, despite the fact that there is no I. Everything. Motivation or lack of motivation included. Reality is all inclusive. How could it be other way? You can try to select and limit experience, of course. Does it work? Are you an entity separate from life that has the power to change life according to your own wants and ideas?

Oh sorry what I meant was that I heard that after enlightenment a lot of people stop doing whatever they were doing (job, study etc) and just like sit in there living room for months. Is that true?

Well, that was not my experience. Do you know this zen proverb? "Before Enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water." To me it was like this.

Anyway, in this forum the goal isn't to reach enlightenment. We are checking if there is a you that can reach something other than what is going on now. Can you find this you, if you look for it?

[Florisness]

Uhh sorry I used the wrong words. I meant that that motivation implies an assumption of an I.

Okay thank you for that. I'll write later, feeling a bit weird a.t.m

[Florisness]

Hi just writing to stay in the habit of writing here, not really sure what to write. I lost the focus slightly from seeing through the no-I. Watching these damned teachings (youtube videos) is sticky persuasive addiction, a thought about that witch from Snow White trying to seduce snow white with that apple popped up, that's how those video's appear to me now haha.
It's becoming more and more clear that there is just experience, which doesn't belong to anything. Did spend some time with the body, I tried if I could see it not as an object but just as color, but object interpretation doesn't seem so easy to shake off. I'll spend tomorrow looking a bit more relevant.

[Canfora]

Watching these damned teachings (youtube videos) is sticky persuasive addiction, a thought about that witch from Snow White trying to seduce snow white with that apple popped up, that's how those video's appear to me now haha.

Distractions, distractions...

Did spend some time with the body, I tried if I could see it not as an object but just as color, but object interpretation doesn't seem so easy to shake off. I'll spend tomorrow looking a bit more relevant.

I know some of the other guides guide by "deconstructing reality" but I'm not sure this approach is useful in this context. After all, you're still trying to understand... Would you prefer to talk with someone that does this kind of guiding? It seems you're trying to guide yourself maybe because I'm not the "right" guide for you? A change of guides is okay, if you think it's a good idea.

[Florisness]

I know some of the other guides guide by "deconstructing reality" but I'm not sure this approach is useful in this context. After all, you're still trying to understand... Would you prefer to talk with someone that does this kind of guiding? It seems you're trying to guide yourself maybe because I'm not the "right" guide for you? A change of guides is okay, if you think it's a good idea.

Thanks for that, but I would rather stay with you if you don't mind. I was a bit confused about why there was no seeing through the I, and started to think that this direct pointing maybe didn't work on me (on who?).
I discovered though that with questions like 'is there a you who moves the body?' (or similar) I was just like 98% sure of it. It was more like 'yes I can see that these thoughts just pop up and it there is no me sending signals in the brain to make thoughts so I don't do that', which gave a bit of self-convincing edge to it and probably some doubt sneaked in in some areas. So I'll go over some points again.

Also I notice thinking about that the I must have something to do with experience. The iThought seems to want to cling to awareness now. It's like 'ohh yes I am probably awareness, whatever that is, where experience happens upon'. Also my mind likes to form a image of how awareness must be part of (or in) the brain.

[Canfora]

You're struggling with deciding in which thoughts to believe?
How do you know if you can trust in the veracity of a thought?
What proves the accuracy of a thought?
A thought can be "I am awareness", yes.
But how do you know this thought is true?
Is a thought that says it must be true enough to make it true?

[Florisness]

Today I saw the question 'is there anyone experiencing life' and noticed that the question had something to discover left in it so I spend the day with it, noticing the obvious. When walking with the dogs a thought popped up about everything just being an effect, and explored that a bit. Than a couple minutes later there was a little opening of the heart of something like that, it felt like a door was opened a tiny bit and a sense of gratefulness and love came (just a bit). At this point I don't really know if there is a question that is still helpful, because all seems to be pretty darn obvious, I think I'll just do nothing at all and notice this.