Free From What?

[C$$]

Hey Nina,

Thank you for these great exercises! It’s really cutting through some long held concepts. Actual experience is proving a lot of “obvious ideas” in thought are completely false. I did the exercises a few times to let the experience sink in. Everything is on autopilot.

What are "now", "past" and "future" in actual experience?

Concepts in thought. Time exists only in thought.

Is it possible for a thought to think?

A thought cannot think; a thought only arises. Thinking is the illusory concept that thoughts appear through a processes called thinking. They simply appear effortlessly.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

That can’t be found. Just a hand raises, even without thought.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

Choosing is just happening.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Nothing appears to be controlling it.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

Can anything be found that makes the hand [move]?

No.

How is the decision made?

It just happens. The action appears before the idea of a decision.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

The sensations and image in the mirror are completely independent from one another. The image does not know what the sensation of the body feels like, and the sensation does not know what the body looks like.

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Yes, thoughts and mental images suggest there is a connection.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

They are both independent experiences.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

It is the same as in the mirror, there is no connection between these two senses. They do not know anything about each other.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

The image alone is a collection of colors. It is the thoughts that interpret an object as a body.

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?

An image cannot know what a body is, it only see’s colors.

Or are there only colours and shapes?

Only colors and shapes.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

There is no visual knowledge to say so. The thoughts say “of course there are legs because I can feel them”, but those are only sensations with a thought label “legs”. The visual knowledge says there is only what is seen.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

There is no ‘body’ to be seen or known. Only sensations.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Only sensation and color.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Walking is sensation with the thought label “walking”

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

No ‘body’ can be found, only through concepts, like an institution.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Walking is also a concept in thought with sensation.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

There is only sensation and image/color, but location cannot be seen. The images change but the location is always here.

Thanks again,
Chris

[Nina45]

Hi Chris,

There was such beautiful clarity with the most recent exercises!

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

The sensations and image in the mirror are completely independent from one another. The image does not know what the sensation of the body feels like, and the sensation does not know what the body looks like.

Great. :)

The image alone is a collection of colors. It is the thoughts that interpret an object as a body.

Very clear!

Walking is sensation with the thought label “walking”

:)

There is only sensation and image/color, but location cannot be seen. The images change but the location is always here.

Yes. Always "now" and always "here". Always just "this".

Thank you for LOOKing so carefully and answering all the questions!


Just a few more before the final confirmation questions.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

Is there any doubt at all? Is it 100% clear that the separate individual has beeen "seen through"?

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Thanks so much Chris!

Very best wishes

Nina

[C$$]

Hey Nina,

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?

It has been seen that there is only ever actual experience. In actual experience thoughts can arise about a separate individual, but that is seen to be illusory. No separate individual has been found since it only existed as a thought.

Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?

Thoughts happen, actions appear to happen, but there does not seem to be someone flipping the switches. They are just happening without any control.

Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?

It’s all just happening without warning.

Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?

Thoughts happened, writing happened. There was nobody involved in an investigation.

Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?

Only perception happened. Nobody doing and nobody perceiving.

Is there any doubt at all? Is it 100% clear that the separate individual has beeen "seen through"?

Thoughts are still appearing. Fireworks have not gone off in the body. There is no separate individual here. Separate from what? There wouldn’t be experience with any separation. Separation could not be experienced. There is only togetherness. Arising now as the experience.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

No significant shifts of perception or perspective have been experienced.

Thank you for all your help!

-Chris

[Nina45]

Hi again Chris!

It has been a very great pleasure to be your guide! Thanks for being so committed to this conversation. It seems that very little guiding was needed - you were ready to LOOK completely.

Here are the final questions. Please take as much time as is needed to answer them!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Very best wishes to you Chris!

Nina

[C$$]

Hey Nina,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Only as a thought. A thought that was taught but never questioned.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self is a story created by thought about an individual living in a universe. It starts when language is introduced to this body/mind, and a name is given to them and the things around them. Thought is the barrier, which keeps the illusion of separation alive. The individual is not living in the universe, the individual is the universe. But, in Actual Experience the universe is every sound, color, smell, taste, and sensation; all labeled as the universe. There is no universe, there is no individual.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels the same. Not much difference from before the dialogue, but a much clearer understanding of what is not. The questions and responses were so sharp and clarifying.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I haven’t been pushed over.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decisions seem to come from thoughts which prompt the body to act, or just the body acts without any prompts. Intention is a thought about an “I” in the “future”, all of which is imaginary. Free will is an illusion due to the preconceived notion that thoughts are controlled or created. Choice and control are both at the will of the body and mind. Mind being thoughts, and body being what’s happening sensorially.

6) Anything to add?

Illusions have been dispelled, but there is more to be clarified and seen through. There is still at times a sense of doeriship and an identification with thoughts.

I feel and see this body making movements that “I” have no part in. But it still feels like “I” am choosing to place “my” attention on senses (breathing, the sensations in my left foot, the sounds in the room). There is still the sense that I can place my attention. I know that there was a thought that appeared out of nowhere that said “place your attention on your nose” and then sensations of the nose were felt, but it still appears like I am doing it.

Intellectually I know there is no individual self, but why is there still this feeling that I am? It’s just a sensation in the body and a false belief.

Thank you Nina.

-Chris

[Nina45]

Hi Chris

Thanks very much for the replies to the confirmation questions. And thanks for the additional comments too. It seems that a few things could do with a bit more looking. Lets do a little further inquiry now.

llusions have been dispelled, but there is more to be clarified and seen through. There is still at times a sense of doeriship and an identification with thoughts.

It sounds like there is an expectation that identification with thoughts will cease and the sense of "me doing something" will fall away.
Look at this expectation.

It is clear that "expectation" is a thought. "Chris" will see that straight away!
But now let in other actual experience that appears connected with the "expectation" or "wish" or "desire".
Is there a mental image?
Is there sensation? Where are the sensations?
Do some of the sensations have thought labels? ("Pain", "disappointment", "sadness"?)
Are there other thoughts? ("I should be like this", "I ought to be like that"?)
Is there sound? (Mental experience of other people's voices?)

Intellectually I know there is no individual self, but why is there still this feeling that I am? It’s just a sensation in the body and a false belief.

What is it that intellectually knows? Really have a a good look for this Chris.
Where is the intellectual located? Again, really try to find out where the intellectual I is located.

What is the "feeling" the "I am"?
Are there sensations?
Say "I am" and point to the location where "I" seems to be. Where is it?
Are there thoughts about "I am": "memories", "plans for the future", "hopes", "dreams"?
Do these thoughts seem to have sensations attached to them?

I feel and see this body making movements that “I” have no part in. But it still feels like “I” am choosing to place “my” attention on senses (breathing, the sensations in my left foot, the sounds in the room). There is still the sense that I can place my attention. I know that there was a thought that appeared out of nowhere that said “place your attention on your nose” and then sensations of the nose were felt, but it still appears like I am doing it.

Ok. Try some Yoga.
Tadasana/ Mountain pose would be great!
Stand feet together, big toes touching.
Lift and spread your toes.
Sway until the point of balance is found. (It is fine to do the rest of the pose ... but this is enough for this investigation)

Say "I am placing my attention in the feet"
Feel the sensations in the "feet"
Is it possbile to think about the "feet" without a mental image of "the feet"?
Is "I" now "in the feet" somehow?
Is "attention" also "in the feet"?
If "I" is not in the "feet", where is it?
If "attention" is not in the "feet" where is it?

What happens when the thought label "feet" is dropped?
Is there a change is in the actual experience of sensation?
Is it possible to just "be alive" without a thought label?

Where is this "I" that is "feeling and seeing" the body?

Decisions seem to come from thoughts which prompt the body to act, or just the body acts without any prompts. Intention is a thought about an “I” in the “future”, all of which is imaginary. Free will is an illusion due to the preconceived notion that thoughts are controlled or created. Choice and control are both at the will of the body and mind. Mind being thoughts, and body being what’s happening sensorially.

What is "the body" in actual experience?
Where is "the mind" in actual experience?
Where is the location of "the mind".

Try Tadasana/ Mountain Pose again, with the eyes closed.
Experience the sensations throughout "the body"
Where is "the mind" exactly?
Where is "the body" exactly?

Where is the exact point where sensation becomes "body"?
Where is the exact point where sensation becomes "mind"?

Is actual experience of sensation possible without the labels "body" and "mind"?

Is is possible to "be alive" without thought labels?

[C$$]

Hey Nina,

I am going to take my time on these responses so I will send you a message soon.

Thank you,
Chris

[Nina45]

Thand for letting me know Chris!

[C$$]

Hey Nina,
Sorry for the delay! These question were difficult and I wanted to answer then in the right space.
I have been LOOKING a lot though. I no longer have the expectation of a big shift to occur, but it does feel like something is happening. Something and nothing.

Is there a mental image?

Yes, there’s a mental image of what it would be like.

Is there sensation? Where are the sensations?

Yes there is some sensation, but it's just sensation without a location.

Do some of the sensations have thought labels? ("Pain", "disappointment", "sadness"?)

Yes, maybe disappointment could be used as a label for the sensation.

Are there other thoughts? ("I should be like this", "I ought to be like that"?)
Yes, there are thoughts around the

expectation of something to occur. Thoughts that there will be an experience but also thoughts that this is the only experience. All of which is simply in the experience of thought.

Is there sound? (Mental experience of other people's voices?)

No sounds, other than just the mental sounds of thought.

What is it that intellectually knows?

Nothing actually intellectually knows. There are just thoughts appearing with an "I" that knows.

Where is the intellectual located?

Located only in thought.

What is the "feeling" the "I am"?

The feeling is really just a thought of “I am”, and then labeled onto the experience that is occurring.

Are there sensations?

Sensations of the current experience.

Say "I am" and point to the location where "I" seems to be. Where is it?

The finger points to the chest.

Are there thoughts about "I am": "memories", "plans for the future", "hopes", "dreams"?

Yes, there are thoughts of I am in past and future.

Do these thoughts seem to have sensations attached to them?

Yes, they seem to be attached to sensations.

Is it possbile to think about the "feet" without a mental image of "the feet"?

Yes, it seems that a thought about the feet can just occur in word, but usually accompanied with a mental image.

Is "I" now "in the feet" somehow?

"I" is a thought, and feet is a sensation, mental label, and mental image.

Is "attention" also "in the feet"?

No, attention is a thought and feet are a sensation with thought.

If "I" is not in the "feet", where is it?

"I" is in the thought of I.

If "attention" is not in the "feet" where is it?

Attention is a sensation, labeled as attention.

Thank you for your time and patience.

Chris

[Nina45]

Hello gain Chris!

It is good to hear from you.

Sorry that the questions were hard to answer - that was not the intention! The intention was to encourage looking at actual experience of sensation rather than thought. The answers given throughout this thread have been very clear and focused on thought. However, in "anything to add" it is clear that there is more than thought going on!:

Intellectually I know there is no individual self, but why is there still this feeling that I am? It’s just a sensation in the body and a false belief.

So the questions were encouraging some direct looking at this "feeling of me".
Thought alone is quite easy to watch pass through. However, often thought appears to be "stuck" to sensation and this we often label as "feeling". When sensation and thought are "glued" it is not so easy for the thought or sensation to pass through.
It is very important that thoughts and sensations are fully looked at. The sensation and the thought are there to be experienced, not - as sometimes happens - discounted and wished away. Look directly at sensation and write down thoughts that appear - this will inticate the "beliefs" that appear as "feeling that I am".

I have been LOOKING a lot though. I no longer have the expectation of a big shift to occur, but it does feel like something is happening. Something and nothing.

Small shifts are happening? Perhaps there has been an "intellectual" understanding for some time? And there was hope for a different experience?

Is there a mental image?

Yes, there’s a mental image of what it would be like.

That is great to know. This is the expectation that is "getting in the way" of actual experience.

Do some of the sensations have thought labels? ("Pain", "disappointment", "sadness"?)

Yes, maybe disappointment could be used as a label for the sensation.

There are different ways of LOOKING at this. One is to look at the thought "disappointment" and ask if it knows anything about the sensation. Then really look into the sensation and behind the sensation and ask if it knows anything about "disappointment". The sensations and the thought labels may change.

Another way of looking is to approach with an intention to "relax". Lie down and LOOK at the sensation without the intention to change anything. If thoughts appear, maintain the intention not to change anything. THEN .... say "stop making uneccessary effort". Ask if there is "unnecessary effort" in the "holding on" to this sensation. Ask if the thought is "unecessary effort". If there is ... see if the unecessary effort stops and if there is a "relaxing" around the sensation.

Are there other thoughts? ("I should be like this", "I ought to be like that"?)

Yes, there are thoughts around the
expectation of something to occur. Thoughts that there will be an experience but also thoughts that this is the only experience. All of which is simply in the experience of thought.

This is great to notice. But remember to look at those thoughts ! And sensations are there to be experienced too.
Don't "push away" actual experience! ..... because, "this is it".

Nothing actually intellectually knows. There are just thoughts appearing with an "I" that knows.

Absolutely!

Say "I am" and point to the location where "I" seems to be. Where is it?

The finger points to the chest.

Have a good look at what is being pointed at in the "chest".
What is there?
Is there anything that "feels like me"?

The yoga exercises were intended to give actual experience of sensation. In the final answers it was clear that there still appeared to be an "I" doing something. This is to be expected beign the habit of "I" (or "selfing") does not disappear magically. However, when we LOOK it should be clear that there is nobody driving! No "I" to take "may attention anywhere". No "awareness" being "aware of sensation". Just sensation and thoughts about "I".

Is "I" now "in the feet" somehow?

"I" is a thought, and feet is a sensation, mental label, and mental image.

Almost. Feet is a thought label. And there is sensation.
Could it be that the actual experience of the thought label and the actual experience of sensation are "glued" together?
Is it possible to actually experience the sensation without a thought label?

Is "attention" also "in the feet"?

No, attention is a thought and feet are a sensation with thought.

Attention is a thought
"Feet" is not a sensation.
"Feet" is a thought label. And there is sensation.
Is there anything at all about sensation that connects it to the thought label "feet"?

"I" is in the thought of I.

Yes "I" is a thought label.

Attention is a sensation, labeled as attention.

Yes! The thought label "attention" points to a sensation.
Is it at all possible to seperate "sensation" and the "sensation" labelled "attention"?

The final answers indicated that there is a real "holding onto" concepts and categories. A "fear" maybe in the "letting go" of concepts about "mind and body" and what the "mind does" adn what the "body does"? The next set of questions were intended to ask "is there any need for concepts?". Does life go on without the concepts? Replace the word "foot" with "plong" - is the sensation the same?

What is "the body" in actual experience?
Where is "the mind" in actual experience?
Where is the location of "the mind".

Try Tadasana/ Mountain Pose again, with the eyes closed.
Experience the sensations throughout "the body"
Where is "the mind" exactly?
Where is "the body" exactly?

Where is the exact point where sensation becomes "body"?
Where is the exact point where sensation becomes "mind"?

Is actual experience of sensation possible without the labels "body" and "mind"?

Is is possible to "be alive" without thought labels?

Is there any fear that arises to the statement "there is no mind and body"? If there is, it needs to be LOOKed at!

It is very good to talk to you again Chris.

Looking forward to the reply!

Very best wishes

Nina

[C$$]

Hi Nina,
Thank you for your questions. It is seen that actions in the body just happen and thoughts just happen. Everything is on autopilot. Everything only happens as the experience of the senses in this moment. It is not clear if thoughts can and do effect the actions of the body. Or if the actions of the body are completely independent from the arising thoughts.

Small shifts are happening?

Small shifts are not really happening because nothing is changing. Everything is just happening and it has always been just happening.

Have a good look at what is being pointed at in the "chest".
What is there?

There is nothing there, sensation and color.

Is there anything that "feels like me"?

No, it's only an "I" thought linked with sensation.

Could it be that the actual experience of the thought label and the actual experience of sensation are "glued" together?

They are not glued.

Is it possible to actually experience the sensation without a thought label?

It's possible to experience the sensation with the label, and the thought without the sensation.

Is there anything at all about sensation that connects it to the thought label "feet"?

No, they do not know anything about each other. They arise independently.

Is it at all possible to seperate "sensation" and the "sensation" labelled "attention"?

It is possible to only feel the sensation. The sensation is only called attention, which is a thought label.

Does life go on without the concepts?

Yes completely.

Replace the word "foot" with "plong" - is the sensation the same?

Yes the sensation is the same.

Is there any fear that arises to the statement "there is no mind and body"?

There is no fear arising to that statement.

Thank you,
Chris

[Nina45]

Hi Chris,

It is seen that actions in the body just happen and thoughts just happen. Everything is on autopilot. Everything only happens as the experience of the senses in this moment. It is not clear if thoughts can and do effect the actions of the body. Or if the actions of the body are completely independent from the arising thoughts.

That seems very clear Chris

Small shifts are not really happening because nothing is changing. Everything is just happening and it has always been just happening.

Very clear!

Have a good look at what is being pointed at in the "chest".
What is there?

There is nothing there, sensation and color.

:)

Is there anything that "feels like me"?

No, it's only an "I" thought linked with sensation.

Great Clarity!

Is there anything at all about sensation that connects it to the thought label "feet"?

No, they do not know anything about each other. They arise independently.

Very clear.

Is it at all possible to seperate "sensation" and the "sensation" labelled "attention"?

It is possible to only feel the sensation. The sensation is only called attention, which is a thought label.

Beautiful!
But what is doing the feeling?

So, FINALLY Chris ...

What is "the mind" in actual experience?
What is "the body" in actual experience?

Very best wishes Chris!

Nina

[C$$]

Hey Nina,

Thank you for the feedback! It seems that thoughts and the "body's actions" are independent from each other.

But what is doing the feeling?

Nothing. Feeing is just happening. And feeling is just sensation with a thought label.

What is "the mind" in actual experience?

Thoughts arising to no one.

What is "the body" in actual experience?

Sensations, colors, smells, tastes, and sounds arising to no one.

Thank you for all your help and support.

-Chris

[Nina45]

Hi Chris,

Sorry - this will seem repetititive. There is a good reason for being repetitive! The repetition is to guide looking again and again until things are clear.

It is clear that "feeling" is a thought label. It is clear the "attention" is a thought label. It is clear that "awareness" is a thought label.

Sensations arise. Thought labels arise and a story is told about the sensations. Sometimes thought stories arise and seem to "attach" to sensation, making the story very convincing.

Stories of the "body" and "mind" are very convincing. But what do they point to? Have a good LOOK.

In describing actual experience:
"thought" points to an actual experience.
"sensation" points to an actual experience.
"sound" points to an actual experience.
"colour" points to an actual experience.
"taste" points to an actual experience.

But what does body point to?
But what does mind point to?
Have a good LOOK.

What is "mind" in actual experience?
What is "body" in actual experience?

Very best wishes

Nina

[C$$]

Hi Nina,

I don't mind repetition. ;)

But what does body point to?

It points to nothing because it does not exist. It is only a concept in thought.

But what does mind point to?

It points to nothing because it also does not exist outside of thought. It is a thought about all thoughts.

What is "mind" in actual experience?

A thought label for thoughts. It is a conceptual idea that only exists as words, and therefore does not actually exist.

What is "body" in actual experience?

A thought label for sensations, colors, sounds. An idea in thought, which has no actual experience of its only.

Thank you,
Chris