Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to dependan

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Could you please stop calling me 'swami'? I know you mean it in fun but it makes me feel slightly icky.

I think the point at which the "self' started to dissipate was when you described thoughts as though they were like clouds in the sky, when you replied that there was no need for there to be a buoy to hang on to in the river of life and there was also a good image in a forum of the self as being as useful as a house plant.

I still have moments of "self" , when I congratulate myself and say things like, "you are so imaginative."
Also I have moments of "self" when I am extremely "self" conscious because I am animating a group that doesn't particularly like me. I really have to work on letting that one flow by like clouds in the sky.

Thank you for this.

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
I apologize for calling you "s_ _ _ _" it came from a place of deep respect and appreciation. So I'm not going to feel like I'm on smack (not that I've ever indulged) when crossing the gate. Oh well, (just skidding).
To understand that the concept of "self" is an illusion is to acknowledge that no one is driving the ship.
There is no "doer" everything is a response. Emotions and the voice required to write this message are not the "self"
How am I doing so far?
Love
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

I don't know. I can't actually tell. I think we should take a break from the inquiry. It has been a longish conversation and it can be counterproductive to go on and on repeating the same questions and concepts, for both parties. It can be very useful to stand back and see what has been achieved and what might be good to look at next.

love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

I feel like I am at the threshold of the door to the house of an abusive partner (self), It is not yet dawn out, and I'm not yet running into the woods.

love
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

I don't know what you mean by 'Im not yet running into the woods'.What does that mean?

I feel like I am at the threshold of the door to the house of an abusive partner (self), It is not yet dawn out,

That's quite colourful too. What does it mean?

OK. Well, we have been through everything several times now. If you want to get serious you are going to have to stop messing around and look at what you are doing here and what you actaully want? I am not convinced that you want to see through the illusion of self.

So I'm not going to feel like I'm on smack (not that I've ever indulged) when crossing the gate

For instance, what are you talking about here? Why mention smack? What has that to do with anything?


love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
You have no idea how much I want to see through the illusion of "self". I think I'm there. but when I get angry I get sucked right back into it, and then it seems to dissipate. This is in no way tedious for me, I apologize for not making sense , I've been working 55 ,59 hrs a week with the spring breaks. I think you are a beautiful apparent entity. I'll message you on Monday after rest and some absorption.
Love,
Sandy

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
Hope all is well, Again I apologize if I haven't been making sense to you, I am an aqua-form and swimming instructor not a writer. I tried writing where I'm at with my understanding of this,

To understand that the concept of "self" is an illusion is to acknowledge that no one is driving the ship.
There is no "doer" everything is a response. Emotions and the voice required to write this message are not the "self"

but that didn't seem to make an impression, so I tried getting poetic at 3a.m..

I feel like I am at the threshold of the door to the house of an abusive partner (self), It is not yet dawn out, and I'm not yet running into the woods.

I do see through the illusion of self/ I used to take the words of the mind seriously. This implies that there is an I that takes the words seriously, what I mean is that in terms of your metaphor about thoughts as clouds in the sky. My head was in the clouds.
Now , the clouds float by, however when angry my head feels like it is in a thunder storm. especially in reference to having been ditched by someone. The illusion of "self" or "ego" was under the delusion of being affronted, and how can something that doesn't exist feel affronted , however, at time it still feels like it still is, but, less and less. The door to the "illusion of self" sucks me back into it when angry. This too shall pass. I hope this makes sense, if not maybe I can draw a picture. I really appreciate your time and effort Jon.
Love,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Hope all is well, Again I apologize if I haven't been making sense to you, I am an aqua-form and swimming instructor not a writer. I tried writing where I'm at with my understanding of this,

You are very good at writing, as you know.

Are you saying you are frustrated with my constant questions?

I do see through the illusion of self/ I used to take the words of the mind seriously. This implies that there is an I that takes the words seriously, what I mean is that in terms of your metaphor about thoughts as clouds in the sky. My head was in the clouds.
Now , the clouds float by, however when angry my head feels like it is in a thunder storm. especially in reference to having been ditched by someone. The illusion of "self" or "ego" was under the delusion of being affronted, and how can something that doesn't exist feel affronted , however, at time it still feels like it still is, but, less and less. The door to the "illusion of self" sucks me back into it when angry. This too shall pass. I hope this makes sense, if not maybe I can draw a picture. I really appreciate your time and effort Jon.

This makes sense. It's quite possible to see the illusion of 'self' but then to experience identification with life story from time to time, before noticing that there isn't 'a person' that can actually be identified for real. So there are many 'seeings' as things go along.

When it is seen it can be instantaneous.

Are you completely happy about all the stuff I have asked about 'choice' and 'control'? We have done an awful lot of talking about these ideas but I am not convinced you have really wanted to know about this dimension of things? Only you know the truth about this. Poetic or flowery language and references to things like smack just add confusion and do not allow me to understand what is or has really been going on in our conversation.

I understand the constraints of your heavy work schedule and it really isn't a good idea to try to communicate late at night when shattered or after a drink or two. So if you wish to complete this inquiry I suggest we restrict exchanges to times when you are reasonably well rested and can focus well? Does that sound reasonable?

Let me know what you think?


love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Are you saying you are frustrated with my constant questions?

Jon , I have never been this intimate with anyone in my entire life. If I sound like a smart-Alec it is most probably because "illusion of self" is feeling defensive and vulnerable. I am discovering a voice other than that of the "illusion of self" which I think is possible.

Are you completely happy about all the stuff I have asked about 'choice' and 'control'? We have done an awful lot of talking about these ideas but I am not convinced you have really wanted to know about this dimension of things? Only you know the truth about this.

I'm diving in and the water is warm, ( sorry I couldn't stop myself) Logically , if I am not myself and I am not in control of voice-over, which has become apparent for me, how can I be in control of voice-over choices (reflexes).
This might seem another weird response by Sandy but I believe the answer to your question would be " ", I think language constrains us.
Love
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

I have never been this intimate with anyone in my entire life.

Really?

I am discovering a voice other than that of the "illusion of self" which I think is possible.

Tell me more about that one please? What is that? If it is a voice what kind of things does it 'say'?

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

I think I see but there are many episodes of identifications with life story, and I worry that if I stop chatting with you the attachment to identification with life story will be constant. Sort of like learning to swim.

I am discovering a voice other than that of the "illusion of self" which I think is possible.

I am uncertain how someone can open there mouth and speak without some identification with life story, since language comes from self-consciousness. But I have noticed a difference in the way that I interact with others. For example , I work with the public and an older man started going on about God . He told me he was catholic. Normally I would tune him out and smile pleasantly nodding my head. Last night I listened and he said, "everything is eternal." I found that particularly interesting. Also , I am less defensive and do not always feel like I am under attack. Thank-you Jon.
Love
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hello Sandy,

. I think I see but there are many episodes of identifications with life story, and I worry that if I stop chatting with you the attachment to identification with life story will be constant. Sort of like learning to swim.

Does thinking you see have anything to do with seeing that you see?

If its only thinking that you see it won't do. It needs to be clear.

Do you see that there is no self?

The worry is understandable but basically it is just speculation. Once it is noticed that there is no self there is no unseeing of that.

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EXPAND VIEW TOPIC REVIEW: LOOKING TO END MY SUFFERING CAUSED MY ATTACHMENT TO DEPENDAN
Re: Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to depe
Post by ilazmit » April 6th, 2016, 12:01 pm

Hello Jon,

I think I see but there are many episodes of identifications with life story, and I worry that if I stop chatting with you the attachment to identification with life story will be constant. Sort of like learning to swim.
I am discovering a voice other than that of the "illusion of self" which I think is possible.

I am uncertain how someone can open there mouth and speak without some identification with life story, since language comes from self-consciousness. But I have noticed a difference in the way that I interact with others. For example , I work with the public and an older man started going on about God . He told me he was catholic. Normally I would tune him out and smile pleasantly nodding my head. Last night I listened and he said, "everything is eternal." I found that particularly interesting. Also , I am less defensive and do not always feel like I am under attack

So what do you draw from listening to the older man and him saying 'everything is eternal'?


Love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

I like the phrase "identification with life story" . Thank-you for that .
and yes Jon , I do see that there is no self.
I think everything is eternal and eternally now.

Love
sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Apologies for somehow pasting our whole conversation into my last post. I have been struggling with some eye problem that means I am tending to make typos and errors.

Does thinking you see have anything to do with seeing that you see?

Thanks for replying to my other questions but could you please address this one?


love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

Sorry to hear about your eye problem, take as long as you like to respond or read this message. I am in no hurry and I will understand if I don't hear from you for awhile. hopefully it is nothing too serious and that it will be on the mend soon.

Does thinking you see have anything to do with seeing that you see?

If I may I would like to give you some insight into my mind in order to respond to this question:
Last night I was lying in bed on the brink of sleep, fatigued, thoughts flying by, scenarios ensuing, some attachment involved. A painful thought floats by and the response is why the # did that pop up. The counter-thought or mental antidote is. "there is no self here to receive the message". It works the thought floats by.
I have also interpreted from a video on this site that one can see thoughts as like soap bubbles when they appear you can look to see if there is any truth to them and they dissipate or not, however that involves someone looking.

Take care of your being, the world needs people like you.
Love
Sandy