Breaking the illusion of a separate self

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

The only way to honestly do this is to step out of the realm of belief and investigate from this neutral position. The only neutral position is direct experience - all other positions are thought based and thus biased and built on certain beliefs. So how does labelling happen... when you look at an object a thought may pop up (or not) saying "Tree". Where did it come from? From anywhere specific? Who was deciding to think the thought? Anyone?

ok on the direct experience--the problem seems to be, how can I "notice" direct experience if I'm always engulfed in thoughts? My current working mode is 99,9% of the time thinking and day dreaming, while direct experience is running in the background.

Also on labeling: if you are involved in thinking, you don't notice the labeling mechanism. A label is created, it's attached and believed to be true, but you are not aware of the whole process.

Well... direct experience is always happening, no matter if one is caught in thought story or not. It is just not knowingly so. There seems to be a natural drive to simply be this natural presence and not the small little separate I that the thought story contains. It might take some time to recognise this presence more and more and at the same time thought story land will become less attractive and thus the time spent as the separate self will diminish... it doesn't take practice it is simply a natural happening once it is seen that the separate self is no more than an unquestioned belief.

ok, but when you say it doesn't take practice, does that include "looking at direct experience"? Because, as I see it, looking at D.E. is a sort of practice, isn't so?

What beliefs do you have left that need questioning?
What about this separate I/self? What do you believe and what is realised from direct experience?

Well, when looking at the direct experience, I've seen all there is to see: nobody doing the thinking, nobody performing actions, no self anywhere; all there is the direct experience, which is another name for existence, for the moment that is "now". Past and future are thoughts, and so is the idea of an "I".

BUT, a moment later, this knowledge goes away and it's like has never been. It's like if you ask me whether 773 is a prime number or not: I can verify it directly by myself, and yes I can see it's a prime number, but if you ask me tomorrow I have to verify it again.

So, in short, I know that there is no self, but it looks like any other knowledge, it doesn't make any difference.

So what to do at this point, what do you suggest?

-Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

when you say it doesn't take practice, does that include "looking at direct experience"? Because, as I see it, looking at D.E. is a sort of practice, isn't so?

It is a practice as long as you believe that it is one. Jut like meditation or learning to read is a practice as long as you believe there is a practitioner doing the practicing. Maybe practicing just happens like any other happening?
When you eat your breakfast, are you practicing eating? Or is it simply happening? When you look at DE it might be something you haven't done very much before so it seems like a practice, something you are learning to do... you might be building a certain conditioning based on a certain input. For example whenever you feel bad you could look at DE, this will eventually happen automatically (which it does anyway) and the more you look the more natural it will become - just like riding a bike or eating breakfast. There will be a point where practicing becomes a natural happening - where you see clearly that if there is no one practicing there can be no practice at all...

Well, when looking at the direct experience, I've seen all there is to see: nobody doing the thinking, nobody performing actions, no self anywhere; all there is the direct experience, which is another name for existence, for the moment that is "now". Past and future are thoughts, and so is the idea of an "I".

Ok, well said!

BUT, a moment later, this knowledge goes away and it's like has never been. It's like if you ask me whether 773 is a prime number or not: I can verify it directly by myself, and yes I can see it's a prime number, but if you ask me tomorrow I have to verify it again.
So, in short, I know that there is no self, but it looks like any other knowledge, it doesn't make any difference.

Yes, if there wouldn't be these BUTs... There is a certain knowledge, a realisation, but this knowledge does not permeate daily life - at least not yet. Daily life seems unchanged, but every realisation will change life. When you compare your daily routine to before we started talking, do you find any difference at all? How was life before and how is it now?
Yes, sure, there will be times, maybe even most of the time, when you are caught in thought-story and this realisation is not in the foreground - you have been functioning like that for decades so give it some time to change. Yes, look as much as you can - look at DE but don't see it as a practice that you are doing (as "you" are not). Simply dissolve into this moment and look where the one is that just a few minutes ago seemed to have a certain problem.
There will be times when seemingly nothing changes and suddenly you look again and see something so clearly that it leaves a deeper impact. Its not up to "you" - so let it happen and don't try to force anything.

Maybe we should take a 3 day break and you simply try to do some looking whenever the opportunity arises. No matter if its while cleaning your teeth or having a shower or riding on a train. Be open and let life do its thing :-)
If thats ok with you please write back by the end of the week.

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

just a quick note:

Yes, sure, there will be times, maybe even most of the time, when you are caught in thought-story and this realisation is not in the foreground - you have been functioning like that for decades so give it some time to change.

ok, so it will take time :-) whatever will be, will be.

Yes, look as much as you can - look at DE but don't see it as a practice that you are doing (as "you" are not). Simply dissolve into this moment and look where the one is that just a few minutes ago seemed to have a certain problem. There will be times when seemingly nothing changes and suddenly you look again and see something so clearly that it leaves a deeper impact. Its not up to "you" - so let it happen and don't try to force anything.

Ok, I am already trying to increase as much as possible the time dedicated at looking. I wake up in the morning committed to the idea of doing it full-time (breakfast, going to work, backing home, etc..). For a while it works, but it's easy to forget it especially during the working hours.

As it's not easy for me to "look" and function normally at the same time, I have a sort of "technique" which consists in one of the following (interchangeably), tell me if they make sense:
- I observe myself. what I am doing as from a distance
- I try to simply "be" here and now
- I witness myself
- I try look at the moment that is "now"
- I look at me doing the actions and in the background asking who/what/how doing is happening
- I look for the sensation of existence
- I look at "me" and at the sensation in the arms/chest that is triggered; there is a clear mental shift that I can recognize when I do this.
- I mentally say "me, me, me" looking for what arises.

(the above are just an attempt to put in words the "looking", but in reality there just one way of looking).

As of now, the only noticeable effects are: sometimes there is like a blow of clarity and a sense of being left with an unsolved puzzle, like a question mark (I don't know how else to describe). Some other times walking and looking around seems more "alive". Some more other times, it's like I'm catching myself with my eyes, trying to spot "where am I?" or "how???" with no answer whatsoever. But all of the above are very short happenings, popping out seldomly and randomly.

Maybe we should take a 3 day break and you simply try to do some looking whenever the opportunity arises. No matter if its while cleaning your teeth or having a shower or riding on a train. Be open and let life do its thing :-) If thats ok with you please write back by the end of the week.

ok, let's see how it goes. I'll report you back at the end of the week.

Thank you for your useful guidance,

- Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

Yes a quick reply.

- I observe myself. what I am doing as from a distance
- I try to simply "be" here and now
- I witness myself
- I try look at the moment that is "now"
- I look at me doing the actions and in the background asking who/what/how doing is happening
- I look for the sensation of existence
- I look at "me" and at the sensation in the arms/chest that is triggered; there is a clear mental shift that I can recognize when I do this.
- I mentally say "me, me, me" looking for what arises.

Yes, do it as long as it feels right to do so, but eventually you will have to question this observer and replace the above with:

- Simply "be" here and now
- Be myself (but not as a specific experience)
- Looking (=being) at what is
- Simply doing the actions
- Be existence
- Be the sensations
- You will start laughing once you say: I mentally say "me, me, me" looking for what arises.

This is not something you can force to happen, it will evolve as the observer/witness becomes tired and worn down just like an old tyre... :-)
But looking at what is, at this moment, without trying to change it to a better now, will reveal a lot...

Alex

[nippur]

Hi Alex,

here I am after the break days spent into "looking".

The more I look at this "sense of existence" and the more I discover new things about it. It's like there's always something new and different, as in looking at the same object from different angles and perspectives. The "being" is a whole universe by itself!

The "aha" moments are more frequent but less "surprising" so to say. The most noticeable one was that for a brief moment I realized that awareness is always present, regardless we notice it or not. Constant awareness in the background.

But still no persistent insight, all is limited to the time spent looking.

You said before that "There seems to be a natural drive to simply be this natural presence and not the small little separate I that the thought story contains", well actually I feel the opposite, the natural tendency is to be carried away by thought stories and miss the "presence".

That's the situation, do you have any suggestion?

Nino

[Alexw]

Hi Nino,

The more I look at this "sense of existence" and the more I discover new things about it. It's like there's always something new and different

Yes, true, its always different. Is this sense of existence separate from the experience itself? Is it separate from the tingling in the feet, separate from the sound of the wind or the smell of a flower?
Or is its essence found wherever you look?

The most noticeable one was that for a brief moment I realized that awareness is always present, regardless we notice it or not. Constant awareness in the background

Yes, its always present, as whatever shows up, no matter if you think about it (notice it) or not.
Is it really in the background? Or is this only an idea? A belief that when you are lost in thought that there is no awareness..? Is thought separate from the awareness of thought? Or are they one and the same?

You said before that "There seems to be a natural drive to simply be this natural presence and not the small little separate I that the thought story contains", well actually I feel the opposite, the natural tendency is to be carried away by thought stories and miss the "presence".

This might seem so, but only as long as thought is believed to have a special importance. As long as you believe that thought can provide solutions to living "problems", to life itself...
Yes, some thoughts are functional - they support conventional life as a human being - they arise, convey a meaning and vanish. Most are just "blah-blah" thoughts - these kind of thoughts are not more important than the humming of the fridge... aren't they? The problem is you can't just stop them, can you? But you can look, and look again, and see again and again that they are simply telling a story, a story about someone having a problem, someone having to make a decision etc etc, but the more you see that its just a story the more you can just have a good laugh and let it go... Its not so much about not getting caught up in thought, its more about seeing through the stories that are woven. You cant stop thinking, just like you cant stop hearing or feeling, but you can see a story as a story (and the funny thing is that these insights will also reduce the thoughts that show up as it simply doesn't make sense anymore to always have stories running in the background - drop the belief and the stories will stop on their own).

Alex