Would be grateful for help with focusing my enquiry

[spektrolyte]

If just I wanted to stop the pain the first thing someone would expect to find in my house is a selection of painkillers, but there is no medication here. Pain is my metaphor for the sense of being out of control and the understanding that there is no control to be found.

I could go on about the violence i saw as a child, the drunken abuse I suffered, the mind games, the narcissistic parents determined to label me as unacceptable to hide the fact they never paid me much attention, but I see all that as fuel for my investigation and have done for quite some time. My life has changed drastically as I engaged with that pain, and continues to open up with your help.

[ElPortal]

Hi Thom

Thanks for those responses.

If just I wanted to stop the pain the first thing someone would expect to find in my house is a selection of painkillers, but there is no medication here. Pain is my metaphor for the sense of being out of control and the understanding that there is no control to be found.

What is being referred to by 'pain relief' is not just physical pain, but also (and perhaps more importantly) the pain of not being in the 'ideal state' (eg the state you reported after listening to the Rupert Spira talk). The desire to fix something, to make this experience 'better'. Can this be let go of, and can the WHOLE of life's experience be celebrated without judgement, all resistances noticed and engaged with?

I could go on about the violence i saw as a child, the drunken abuse I suffered, the mind games, the narcissistic parents determined to label me as unacceptable to hide the fact they never paid me much attention, but I see all that as fuel for my investigation and have done for quite some time. My life has changed drastically as I engaged with that pain, and continues to open up with your help.

Great, Thom. Can those painful elements, now memories (T), when called up into this moment, also be engaged with as part of Life's flow (like the little mountain stream's rocks and treestumps)? Could they even be seen as Life's perfect guru, pointing us beyond Life's appearances of imperfection and cruelty, towards the wonder of WHAT IS... of THIS? Everything just so, everything just as it is supposed to be, pain and all?

Can those possibilities be seen? Please let me know what sensations come up? Any resistance? Any relief? What sensations RIGHT NOW?

Cheers

Mark

[spektrolyte]

Hi Thom

Thanks for those responses.

What is being referred to by 'pain relief' is not just physical pain, but also (and perhaps more importantly) the pain of not being in the 'ideal state' (eg the state you reported after listening to the Rupert Spira talk). The desire to fix something, to make this experience 'better'. Can this be let go of, and can the WHOLE of life's experience be celebrated without judgement, all resistances noticed and engaged with?

YES!

Great, Thom. Can those painful elements, now memories (T), when called up into this moment, also be engaged with as part of Life's flow (like the little mountain stream's rocks and treestumps)? Could they even be seen as Life's perfect guru, pointing us beyond Life's appearances of imperfection and cruelty, towards the wonder of WHAT IS... of THIS? Everything just so, everything just as it is supposed to be, pain and all?
Can those possibilities be seen?

I see the possibility.

Please let me know what sensations come up? Any resistance? Any relief? What sensations RIGHT NOW?

Stickiness in the middle of the back, pressure in the stomach, heaviness at the centre of the chest, tightness in the left leg, all of which would fit the description of resistance. There is also a sense of relief, at being reminded of the idea that all the tools I need are right here.

[spektrolyte]

Quote fail...

[ElPortal]

haha, yes, Spektrotastic quote fail...

[ElPortal]

Ok, and Thom....

....so can those sensations be embraced, welcomed, followed, until they go whenever they do (as per our procedure)? Can the RESiSTANCE be embraced? (take time to follow this through please).


M

[ElPortal]

Okay, Thom,

I would like to invite you to take a walk out into nature, as natural as possible. Before you leave, if you like you could make a few notes of the below instructions on a piece of paper. If wild nature is not around, then go to a park.

Once there, spend a good 20 minutes enjoying just sitting or standing and observing. Even take your shoes off if possible (I highly recommend this, even if it sounds silly). Notice the movement of the weather, the changing of cloud shapes, the air fluctuations, the movement of trees and plants, the interplay of bird life and all the other life.

1. Notice whether anything happens separately, or is all one interconnected movement. Can any one single thing be taken out of the rest? Is anything not alive and changing?
2. Notice the 'Thom body' sitting/standing there in the midst. Can that be separated out from the rest? Or is it/he part of that whole movement...
3. Dies it seem, empty, void of life, or full of life? Constricted, or free? Controlled, or just vibrant and alive?

Cheers

Mark

[spektrolyte]

1. Notice whether anything happens separately, or is all one interconnected movement. Can any one single thing be taken out of the rest? Is anything not alive and changing?

It's all just a process in motion, everything working together.

2. Notice the 'Thom body' sitting/standing there in the midst. Can that be separated out from the rest? Or is it/he part of that whole movement...

He's just another expression of that process.

3. Does it seem, empty, void of life, or full of life? Constricted, or free? Controlled, or just vibrant and alive?

Everything has taken on a magical quality, it is very much alive :)

[ElPortal]

( NOTE: this dialogue took place prior to the previous two posts, Thursday 1pm, copied over to hear a day later):-

11/02/2016, 13:01:17] Mark: ok ready when you are...
Thom: alright
Mark : so what's coming up, where we up to?
Thom: this idea of embracing the resistance
Mark : only the idea?
Thom:: it feels as if a lot has changed since yesterday
Mark : ok
Thom:: embracing the pain and embracing the resistance to it are two different things
Thom : up until now i have been embracing the pain and it always wins eventually
Mark : ha [
Mark : and now what is seen that is different from that?
Thom : difficult to verbalize, but the pain does seem to be a hall of mirrors
Mark : hm
Thom: ie something which has no substance until it is observed from a perpspective
Thom : so its the observation of the pain, not the observation of the sensation which causes me to be stuck
Mark : cool
Thom: if i stop seeing it as pain it’s easy to observe
Thom the conversation about beliefs was very helpful in that respect
Mark : ok
Mark : yes, it seems that most of what we do in looking is peeling away bullshit thoughts, doesn't it?
Mark : and even more, bullshit beliefs
Thom: thats precisely it. i have gone from thinking there is some ‘prize’ that is waiting to be discovered, to another idea that the real problem is that i keep finding excuses not to look
Mark : aha
Thom : and that when i do finally resign myself to just looking, the answer will be ovbious
Mark : frightened of the freedom eh?
Thom : totally
Thom: frightened to let go of the story

Mark : when you look down at 'the Thom body'....
Mark : is it ok for it to smart and react?
Mark : is that understandable?
Thom : absolutely
Mark : could you even (and take a moment over this) feel some compassion for it?
Mark : like a bewildered animal that is just trying to survive and flourish as best it can in a sometimes confusing world?
Thom : that idea has triggered an emotional reaction so yes i guess i could
Mark : stay with it for a bit
Mark : embrace him
Mark : (I am guessing that he sure could use that)
Thom: yes and he is tired of feeling that he is lacking, or doesn’t live up to expectations the expectations imposed on him. it would be much easier if all that pretence were dropped.
Mark : cool
Mark : so are all the reactions to parents understandable (as are the actions of those parents too)?
Mark : i mean truly...
Mark : (like the stream)
Thom: when i said expectation i meant those imposed by the self. the parents were a good way of putting responsibility elsewhere but i know that isn’t helpful, much better that i realise i am the caretaker of those expectations. yes life is a stream. there was a cause for their behaviour just like there was for mine, and that chain goes back into the mists of time
Thom : wishing it were any different is pretty dumb in retrospect
Mark : ok so can Thom-body be embraced in ALL the reactions he has had, all the resistances... as well as all the joys?
Mark : give it a moment... we are not interested in a head response here, but a heart response...
Mark : if emotions well up, that's ok
Thom : yes there doesn’t seem to be any justification for accepting some and not others
Thom : in fact it feels like the non acceptance just enourages the unwanted response
Mark : ha.... and what does the heart say (that bit looks quite well reasoned!) ..?
Thom : the heart says “just give in to it”
Mark : and what's going on feeling-wise (including sensations)?
Thom: a feeling of calm. a few tears rolled down the face, a sense of a heaviness around the heart which is dissolving. a general feeling of internal release.
Thom : everything has gone quiet
Mark : ok... give yourself time... be gentle..
Mark : another question for you to consider REALLY carefully....
Mark : could... any... resistance... have... been.... any.... other... way...?
Thom : not given the circumstances
Thom : no its all the same
Mark : could it... given ANY circumstances?
Thom: only in ( T )
Thom : no special circumstances
Thom : only special ideas which differentiate circumstances
Mark : and ( T)... are they real?
Thom : no
Mark : ok...
Mark : you mentioned to me the other day something like being terrified of the freedom of no self, or no control? Was that correct or would you like to re-phrase it?
Thom: i have a sense that all is required is a letting go, of allowing awareness to move outward in all directions. when this starts to happen a sense of fear creeps in.

Thom : no self feels like a letting go
Mark : but what is there to let go of, if there never was any real individual self?
Thom : its an experience
Mark : it's just opening your eyes to what already is... isn't it?
Thom : yes
Mark : so, and even that is overstating it... it's like taking shit out of the eyes, isn't it?
Mark : was there EVER any control? was there EVER any real self to defend, Thom?
Thom : i dont know but i do know that my attempts to control it have been pointless
Mark : of course
Thom : and so all of ‘it’ has suddenly lost its realness
Thom : there is nothing to control. no handles or levers.
Thom : its just grasping at thin air
Mark : is that ok?
Thom : ok is something grasped
Thom : just like not ok
Thom : but yes its fine with me that there are no levers
Thom: quite a relief
Mark : oki
Mark : So is it ok to be totally without control?
Mark : (control, as we have understood it)
Thom : if there is no control to be had, it seems pointless to require it
Thom : and a lot easier to not try
Mark : ha... astute answer

Mark : when you look now... you maybe see an apparent body, but can you find any individual autonomous Thom?
Thom : no i am like a single gear wheel in a swiss clock. totally dependent on everything else.
Thom : and connected to it making a complete system
Mark : outside your window.. are there any trees that can be seen?
Thom : yes, almost nothing but trees
Mark : ok... can you go over to window for a moment (I will wait). Go and look at a tree. Does it have any control? Is there any problem with that? Is all happening just as it should? Is it (apparently growing)? Is anything going 'wrong' without control? Come back when you've had an actual look for a few moments.
Thom : it is still a tree no matter what it does
Mark : is there anything going wrong with it without any control?
Thom : only when thinking in terms of a ‘good’ tree vs a ‘bad’ tree
Thom : it is still a tree
Mark : is it doing well, as trees go? is it flourishing?
Thom : it would flourish more if we didn’t chop bits off it for firewood, but it’s doing fine despite that
Mark : ahhh,
Mark : does it have to remember to bud?
Mark : what if it forgets to fruit?
Thom : (laughter)
Thom : not an issue
Mark : ok.. do you have any more control than the tree?
Thom : it just happens as part of being a tree
Mark : just make your blood run in the opposite direction for amount? ok?
Mark : stop your liver for a second then restart it...
Thom : no i can’t, and furthermore if i should inside my head “MOVE” at my hand as much as I like it doesnt move.
Mark : good point...
Mark : so we're not looking into whether you might LOSE control, we are looking at whether you EVER HAD ANY (apart from in our vain imaginations) right?
Thom : yes
Thom : and with nothing to lose the investigation takes on a different meaning
Mark : haha
Mark : a bit lighter?
Thom : absolutely

Mark : anything new to find... or is it all right here, and has always been?
Thom : no its always been here
Mark : was it more here after the Rupert Spira talk, than after the confusion when 'the peace was lost'?
Mark : or are both equally Life flowing freely?
Mark : (assuming we can call up both from memory)
Thom : i see the logical chain connecting the events, it couldnt have been any other way
Mark : ok so what else is there other than freedom?
Thom : not sure i understand
Mark : if it cannot be another way, what else is there except freedom? is anything not free (even if it believes itself not to be free)?
Thom : either freedom or no freedom depending on who’s looking
Mark : who's looking?
Mark : but if I think I am not free (T) is life no longer flowing freely here?
Thom : let me think for a moment
Thom : there is complete freedom for life to express itself
Thom : there is no freedom in terms of control
Mark : if the stream suddenly feels guilty for turning left over the rock and not watering the grass to the right, has the stream truly suddenly become responsible for its actions?
Thom : but hang on control is just a ( T ) becuase it doesnt exist
Thom : only responsible if it choses to be
Thom : nothing is making it responsible
Mark : how can it choose?
Mark : how can it make a choice separate from all the other elements and inputs?
Thom : there is no responsibility
Mark : what is Thom responsible for?
Thom : nothing!
Thom : (laughter)
Mark : ;-)
Mark : (but doesn't mean he might not to go prison if he nicks the neighbour's car, right?)
Thom : absolutely
Mark : i mean, we're not suddenly living in lala land
Thom : but there is no sense of guilt to be found anywhere
Mark : how does this feel?
Thom : nice

Mark : what if Thom suddenly thinks: oh wait, I am not free
Mark : has he intervened into life and made Life unfree chez Thom?
Mark : has he successfully created a separate kingdom in which Thom truly has jurisdiction?
Thom : its just a ( T ), part of life expressing itself freely
Mark : yes... Life is free to ( T) and think itself to be Thom thinking, right?
Thom : life is free to express the idea of non freedom
Thom : but that doesnt stop it being free
Mark : ahA
Thom : holy shit
Thom : thats quite a significant realisation
Mark : so it seems very much, from what you're saying/seeing, as though Life might enjoy both SEEING... and PLAYING, what do you say?
Thom : yes
Mark : playing at being Mark and Thom, for example,,, but then getting a bit pissed off with that when things get to boiling point, and returning to SEEING ahhhhh
Thom : quite possibly
Mark : only possibly?
Mark : ;-)
Thom : i havent tested it out yet
Mark : ok...

Mark : anything else coming up for you right now Thom?
Thom : yeh the sensation that i am expanding outwards
Mark : ha
Thom : it feels really nice
Thom : and i feel like i want to cry
Mark : sure... let the emotions flow...
Thom : its such a relief
Mark : much healthier
Mark : What you have expressed there is seeing through the illusion of the separate self...
Mark : Once seen it cannot be unseen (but Life can pretend again, can play etc)... but it has been seen
Mark : the emotions flow.. there is a sense of relief... these are sensations which come and go and pass.. right?
Thom : yes

Mark : Can ALLLLLLLLLLL states be seen to be equally valid and allowed.
Mark : If they are there Life is expressing itself this way...
Mark : might that be ok?
Thom : it couldnt be any other way
Thom : ok is irrelevant
Mark : cool
Mark : ha
Mark : now if the tree is doing ok (in the long run despite hacking about) might the Thom-body(plus neuronal accoutrements) do just as ok in the long term (despite hackings around, and violent thoughts etc etc)...?
Mark : i.e. with no control, might it all be ok as it is?
Thom : yes
Thom : but the mind doesnt agree with that
Thom : but thats ok
Mark : of course, that's it job!
Mark : (well not its job, but its habit)
Thom : i see
Mark : so how's the feelings right now, Thom?
Thom : up and down
Thom : a few moments ago it seemed like a terrible loss
Thom : now its ok again
Mark : ok can any of them not be embraced, Thom?
Thom : no they can all be embraced
Mark : could all the feelings be allowed to flow through, like the little stream, like the river, like the rapids???
Thom : well the mind still doesnt like it but yes
Mark : noticing thoughts as just like the writing on the paper... commentary?
Mark : welcome home
Thom : yes it’s a commentary
Mark : welcome home
Thom : thankyou

Mark : i have an exercise for you to do, if you like (I recommend it). I'll put it in the thread in LU
Mark : if you've got some time this afternoon
Thom : sure
Thom : feels like i have all the time in the world
Mark : hehe, but then after that we'll conclude our thread in LU if you like. I end with some questions which you answer, then, once other guides have confirmed, you get invited into some groups where you can talk things through with others who have had the similar 'collapse'.... there can be further looking etc etc
Thom : ok
Mark : does that interest you? (of course there's no need for any of that)
Thom : i’m not really sure what has happened
Mark : What's the weather like today where you are?
Thom : its clear dry and sunny
Mark : Perfect... so wrap up, you're going to be going outside! I'll put it over in LU ok?
Thom : yes i’ll continue the thread
Thom : sorry everything has suddenly become very confusing
Mark : why's that?
Mark : what's the confusion
Thom : i’m not sure! :)
Thom : theres still laughter
Mark : when confusing thoughts come, you could see them written up on an imaginary wall
Mark : hehe ok
Thom : but something saying ‘dont let me go just yet’
Mark : haha.. too late... what's really there that can say that?
Thom : hahahaha
Thom : good point
Mark : ok I'll say bye here for now
Mark : (thoughts never HAVE to be believed, you know!)
Thom : ok mark
Mark : (tricky buggers sometimes..) ok
Mark : the post will be up on LU real soon*
Mark : take time with it.. and enjoy
Thom : thank you very much. still not sure what has happened.
Mark : perfect
Mark : ciao my friend
Thom : bye :)

* The exercise mentioned was the walking in nature exercise (which appears together with your response before this post, as this dialogue was copied over to hear a day later, once you had given permission to do so).

[ElPortal]

Ok Thom: lovely.

Everything has taken on a magical quality, it is very much alive :)

Is this welcomed and embraced, just like the pain, resistance, and any other experience, allowed to stay as long as it stays and to move on whenever it does that?
Is this especially free, or are all sensations and states Life expressing its freedom?

The body seems to be 'adjusting' somehow, and last night was quite interesting, particularly various sensations in the head. The noise up there has stopped again which is nice, but it did that two weeks ago. Something is definitely different, I am not sure if I am here or not.

Great. Can this too be embraced, not seen as 'belonging to Thom' but just seen as 'what is happening right now, part of Life's living moving landscape', without the need to judge it ultimately as any better or worse than anything else?

Cheers

Mark

[spektrolyte]

It's all embraced, every little bit of it, and makes perfect sense - including Thom's apparent instability in the middle of it.

The judgement is what is missing, whilst the experience continues. That is what was meant by "I am not sure if I am here or not".

There is happiness :)

[ElPortal]

Great Thom,

I am not sure if I am here or not

Can any real "I" be found here? Or just THIS experience?

Now a little exercise about 'choice'. Take your time over it. Remember the mountain stream, that movement of life involving everything? Now I would like you to look at three separate objects in the room, then name them (T). Now slowly and deliberately, choose one of the objects and then go and touch it, noticing everything that is going on.

Now let me know what happened., what was experienced?
Was there a Thom there choosing? Can any point in the body or head be found which was responsible for the choice?
Can any decision be found separated out from the rest of the flow of life?
Maybe some thoughts happened around the choice, were those thoughts truly deciding? Or were they commenting on the events or the choice?
Can the thoughts truly be said to be the cause for the choice?

Cheers

Mark

[spektrolyte]

Can any real "I" be found here? Or just THIS experience?

The I only exists in thought (T) So it is just another experience, and an intrinsic part of everything else.

Now let me know what happened., what was experienced?

The experience of touching it, of what it feels like for fingers to contact that object, along with some thoughts trying to explain what it is. The moment it was defined, awareness seemed to collapse around it and it became the centre of the universe, with everything else having to become other things in relation to it.

Was there a Thom there choosing? Can any point in the body or head be found which was responsible for the choice?
Can any decision be found separated out from the rest of the flow of life?

No.

Maybe some thoughts happened around the choice, were those thoughts truly deciding? Or were they commenting on the events or the choice?
Can the thoughts truly be said to be the cause for the choice?

The thoughts are just part of the show. There is no choice.

[ElPortal]

Thanks for that Thom,

I'm going to hit you with a checklist now before the summary questions, so these 9 can be answered succinctly, unless there's something you want to discuss in them or something is unclear:-

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

2. Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

6. Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

7. Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

Cheers

Mark

[spektrolyte]

1. Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Only in thought.

2. Or a self that is 'the doer', or can control what happens?

There is no control.

3. Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

There are no decisions to be made.

4. Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

There is thinking, like there is wind blowing. Nothing specifically is doing it.

5. Can "the body" be found to be any more than label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

No.

6. Can the five body senses be found to be experienced or caused by this ‘self’, rather than simply being unexplainable happenings?

Only in thought.

7. Can a self be found ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Only by it's own definition of itself. From the perspective of awareness it's all the same.

8. Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No.

And finally:

9. Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

There are doubts about everything but what does it matter? I really don't know any more.