Would be grateful for help with focusing my enquiry

[spektrolyte]

1. Can a real separate individual called Thom be found anywhere in actual first-hand experience? If so, please describe?
If not, please describe what is experienced.

Thom is the perspective from which the experience is experienced. I experience him like I experience everything else. I experience his emotional feelings, physical sensations and thoughts. The experience is what is experienced and there is no desire to change it.

2. Let me have your list.

Constant sound of the air filter
Feeling of fingers touching the computer keyboard
A pulling sensation at the back of the left thigh and another in the left calf
A feeling of cold (because the stove is not lit)
The thought that this exercise makes no sense (but without any need for it to make sense)
The sense of an empty stomach (still haven't had breakfast)

It's all experience, there is no commentary, assumption or interpretation. Answered as honestly as I could.

[spektrolyte]

Last week the answers would probably have been different but there has been a recent change in awareness which is raising a question over the need for this process.

[spektrolyte]

I am watching things happen, not making things happen.

[ElPortal]

Hi Thom,

Last week the answers would probably have been different but there has been a recent change in awareness which is raising a question over the need for this process.

That's cool, there is no need to continue this exploration unless there is an urge to do so? Just let me know.

Thom is the perspective from which the experience is experienced. I experience him like I experience everything else. I experience his emotional feelings, physical sensations and thoughts.

What is this "I" here who is experiencing "Thom" and everything else?

Constant sound of the air filter
Feeling of fingers touching the computer keyboard
A pulling sensation at the back of the left thigh and another in the left calf
A feeling of cold (because the stove is not lit)
The thought that this exercise makes no sense (but without any need for it to make sense)
The sense of an empty stomach (still haven't had breakfast)

It's all experience, there is no commentary, assumption or interpretation.

Great. Now go through the description of that, and can you find any of it that is not labelling/thoughts? Eg What is 'left thigh' in direct firsthand experience? eg what is 'because the stove is not lit'. Is it (E) or is it (T)?

Cheers

Mark

[spektrolyte]

That's cool, there is no need to continue this exploration unless there is an urge to do so? Just let me know.

There is no need to continue and no need to stop. It is just happening. I wouldn't be any happier either way.

What is this "I" here who is experiencing "Thom" and everything else?

Consciousness/awareness. Of nothing in particular, just awareness. The whole of any possible experience is contained within "I". It couldn't be any other way.

Great. Now go through the description of that, and can you find any of it that is not labelling/thoughts? Eg What is 'left thigh' in direct firsthand experience? eg what is 'because the stove is not lit'. Is it (E) or is it (T)?

Left thigh is left thigh, as opposed to right ear. It's all just labelling of experience for the purpose of communication, (because the stove is not lit) is an observation of the experience of cause and effect. Are thoughts not also an experience?

[spektrolyte]

OK I think there was some misunderstanding before.

It seems that this was done subconsciously, but the thoughts in my list are that which are in brackets, everything else is sensory experience.

[spektrolyte]

Mind objects and world objects are the same thing. I experience the senses like I experience the thoughts. Neither of them are me.

[spektrolyte]

Thom appears to be a delivery mechanism for love. There is an overwhelming desire to express the unity of everything but at the same time I am that unity and my very existence is that expression.

[ElPortal]

HI Thom,

Cool, thanks for letting me know.

I'll just leave you with the following considerations, but just for yourself, only come back to me if there is a definite urge to explore further here.

Mark: What is this "I" here who is experiencing "Thom" and everything else?
Thom:Consciousness/awareness. Of nothing in particular, just awareness. The whole of any possible experience is contained within "I". It couldn't be any other way.

What is this 'consciousness/awareness' except two words, or two terms, maybe used by Rupert Spira, or other teachers? Is it any more than an assumption, an interpretation (and therefore in thought (T)?

(because the stove is not lit) is an observation of the experience of cause and effect. Are thoughts not also an experience?

Is 'cause and effect' experienced (E) or is it an assumption (T)? If it's actually experienced (to BE cause and effect, rather just the appearance of cause and effect), you might like to have a careful look and see whether you can find that link between any cause and any effect (without reasoning it, deducing it (T) ).

Cheers and all the best

Mark

[spektrolyte]

Hi Mark,

There is no need to explore at all. Thom would quite enjoy a walk in the sunshine instead of watching the computer for replies, so why not let him.

There was a definite need on Saturday when signing up for the forum, but something fundamental has changed since then and there is no sense of a need to even understand that change.

The consciousness/awareness is the ground from within which all experience arises, including that from which thoughts arise so it cannot be a (T). There are no words to describe this which haven't been used by numerous teachers, there's no original or novel explanation of my experience that hasn't already been said a thousand time.

Everything is the cause and effect of everything else, it just is, it's not a felt sensory experience, and it's not a thought, but it can be observed. The thoughts have stopped in the head but the actions continue, so the thoughts were never responsible for the actions and therefore they must be happening for the same reason the flowers grow and the rains fall. A flower does not think about how many petals it would like to have when it grows up, which proves to me that the mind is just a conditioned process responding to it's experience, rather than the centre of that experience with some influence over what happens.

I guess we just leave it here then. Thank you for your time and allowing me to explore!

[ElPortal]

Beautiful: enjoy that walk.

Love and warmth

Mark

[spektrolyte]

So after how I felt this morning there is a fire burning stronger than ever to get through this. But I am confused. Who want's to get through? And when it occurs is it so obvious that everything has to change undeniably and there are no more questions?

The mind is quiet, but I am proud that my mind is quiet. Herein I see the paradox. What now?

[ElPortal]

Hi Thom,

Maybe we could just take some time to notice again the difference between thought activity (T) and direct, firsthand now sensorial experience (E). If you could get used to using these two labels (T) and (E) (eg placed after a phrase) it might help us.

1. As you look back to the experience of the last week, is that now (E) or (T). If (E) where is it experienced in the body right now? If (T), is it still alive in the body, or does it only exist as a memory (T)?

2. Please take a moment now to describe the current experience, noting all the sensations with all the available senses.
When we take away all labels and judgments does this experience feel like it's alive or dead?
What should be different from the way it is now? Or, put another way, what is imperfect in this present experience?

3. Then, please could you repeat the exercise where you sit for two minutes and note down all that is experienced, so that we can look into this in detail. After you have done it, after each item label it either (T) or (E).

Don't rush these considerations please Thom. Take a few hours each time. And always respond from the actual firsthand experience (rather than 'thought labyrinth') with whatever FEELS REAL.

Very warmly to you,

Mark

[spektrolyte]

OK will do. The first one is clear, will consider the rest and get back later.

1. As you look back to the experience of the last week, is that now (E) or (T). If (E) where is it experienced in the body right now? If (T), is it still alive in the body, or does it only exist as a memory (T)?

Without doubt that which was an experience is now (T)

[ElPortal]

Cool, no rush.