Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:39 pm

Are you the author or owner of any thoughts that arise?
There is no "me" entity creating thoughts or taking ownership of them.
Can you control what thoughts appear?
No. To "will" a particular thought to appear would require knowledge of the content of thought before it arises, plus some way to select it rather than any other thought, whose content would also need to be known.
Can you find anyone or anything that thoughts are appearing to or that is ‘creating’ thoughts?
No. Experience is just sensation plus the continual arising of thought. There is no need (and no way) to add a separate experiencer into the equation.
Is there a dividing line between ‘seeing’ and ‘seen’?
No.
What the thought is about, the definition of ‘doubt’ and all the associated thoughts and feelings that seemingly go with that are content and are fiction. Is this clear?
Yes, this is clear!
If the experience of *thought+sensation* shows up, where is the dividing line in ACTUAL EXPERIENCE that allows that experience to be divided into a separate experience of "thought" and a separate experience of "sensation"?
There is no actual line. Everything is in the same awareness.
Is there really the experience of thought AND sensation or is there just thoughtsensation?
There's no separation.
Is experience divided at all or is there only soundthoughtsensationsmelltastesound?
Experience is just one "thing". The aspects of it that seem distinct are not actually divided in any real way.
I want you to LOOK in AE and see if you can find anything that “lies beyond”….beyond what exactly?
I just meant "in the future". I've enjoyed reading other people's liberation stories and I'm interested to see what kind of questions/realisations come up afterwards. For example I heard somebody (in a LU audio/video clip) talking about how strange opinions seem after you recognise no self. A few weeks ago I wouldn't have related to that idea at all but now I find it fascinating.

I'm going to come back to the colour test in the next few days, when I can give it proper time and attention :)

Thank you!

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Sat Jan 30, 2016 9:44 pm

Hi Jamie,

Nice clear answers.....thank you! I look forward to your next post.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Mon Feb 01, 2016 11:15 am

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
The colour red is experienced, as well as thoughts about green.
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
A label is only a label. There is no actual correspondence to anything in reality. The label "green" evokes thoughts of trees, grass, confusion etc. None of those things are here in reality.
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?
The actual experience is image (red) + thought (word label "green" + green things).
If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
The redness is not affected by the label.
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?
The redness does not become anything. The labels have no effect on reality.

Thank you!

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Mon Feb 01, 2016 12:33 pm

Hi Jamie,

Well, you have done wonderful looking throughout this exploration and I have no questions for the label GREEN exercise...you were very clear with your responses. If you have any questions you would like addressed please let me know. If not, here are the final questions as our exploration has come to an end.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Please answer each question individually and with some detail. And make sure you provide some current examples from experience in questions 5.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:05 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No.
No.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
It makes linguistic sense for us to pin actions on specific beings with simple reference labels like "I", "you", "we", "they" etc. So it seems obvious that this idea is instilled in us from an early age. Almost all language we ever use reinforces the myth that each body "contains" a separate self. As the body grows and experience expands, references to this named character "I" become more and more frequent and intertwined. Each being stores their unique story in the form of thoughts and memories generated by the brain. The brain labels each experience from the perspective of the linguistically convenient "I" and "me" and thought automatically becomes a constant stream of self reference. All experience is hung on this make-believe frame. It doesn't take long for all this thought content to totally obscure the frame from view. From then on, we just assume there's a real frame in the middle of everything, holding it all together.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Before I started this dialogue I'd already accepted intellectually that there's no separate self. Since seeing through the illusion, the main difference is that I now recognise thoughts and feelings for what they are. Although it's still easy to get caught up in thought at times, there's always a kind of mental review going on. The subject of the self illusion arises frequently in the mind and I am driven to read more about it. It's nice to re-read books that hadn't quite "clicked" in the past. They make a lot more sense now.

It's also funny/frustrating that language (at least English) makes any discussion of this seem insane. It's so difficult to put this experience into the words which helped create it in the first place.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
Before I started, I read a lot awakening accounts. I was never able to pinpoint exactly what it was that triggered the shift. I now see that the "answer" lies between the questions, and outside the content of thought. That was something quite hard to grasp before I experienced it.

You really pushed me in the right direction when you pointed out that I hadn't actually looked, and that my answers came from a story. That clue led me to soften my focus somehow: Tone down the "thinking" and invite the realisation to wash over me. I woke up from actual sleep with the realisation already in mind. I'm still unsure whether this was a good or bad thing. On one hand it felt a bit like a shortcut because I'd arrived without effort. On the other hand, it seemed like I might have missed the best part of the journey.

The key part of the realisation was that I experienced the "collapsing" and saw that in reality there is simply no place for a separate self. That is something I cannot unsee.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
The brain is a complex machine and we are conditioned to believe we are responsible for conscious decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Recognising that there's no self automatically rules these out (how does Santa Claus make decisions in reality?), although the illusion of control is persistent. Anything we label "decision", "intention" etc is just subconscious brain activity based on past experience and genetic predisposition.

Experience is full of examples. Every day "I" make hundreds or thousands of decisions. Like intending/deciding/choosing to type these words. When, where, why, how was a decision made? I don't know, but my hands type and the brain grabs ownership of every action: "I'm typing!". Each word is its own choice/decision. "I'm composing!" If a hand hits the wrong key, there is the "choice" to correct it or continue. "I made a mistake! I'll fix it!". Other bodies might prioritise speed over accuracy but "attention to detail is important to me!". It goes on and on.

Nothing is "decided" by a self/soul/spirit – Life is just a long string of events reaching back millions of years.
6) Anything to add?
Just a big THANK YOU to you and the other guides who invest the time, effort, and patience into running this forum. "No self" is something which is difficult to grasp by merely absorbing information. It's the interactivity that makes the question/answer process so much more effective.

I'm so grateful to you all for this gift :)

Thank you Kay! Love and respect to you <3 I will try to pay your kindness forward!

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:00 pm

Hi Jamie,

I have a couple of questions.

Can you find a brain anywhere in actual experience?
Is there anyone or anything actually labelling anything, or is labelling just happening as ASAP of thought?
What exactly is it that has a brain?
Where is this entity to be found that has subconscious brain activity based on past experience and genetic predisposition?
What is the AE of past experience?
Since it is seen that you don't reside in a body, how is it known that other bodies might prioritise speed over accuracy?
How is it known that Life is just a long string of events reaching back millions of years?
What is the AE of time?
Where is the 'me' that finds attention to detail important?
Where is this 'I' that is typing? Is there an 'I' doing the typing or is typing just happening?
Where is the decision maker that is deciding anything?
Where is the 'I' that has a brain that grabs ownership of every acation?

Your answers point to an 'I' that has a body and brain which has genetic predisposition, a memory and is doing, deciding, choosing and has a past and lives in time!

Can you please answer the question by looking carefully at what is really there in actual experience.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:44 pm

Can you find a brain anywhere in actual experience?
No.
Is there anyone or anything actually labelling anything, or is labelling just happening as ASAP of thought?
Labelling just happens. Thought arising as sensation happens.
What exactly is it that has a brain?
"Brain" and "skull" are labels that point to parts of reality, no? They are not owned. Have I missed something?
Where is this entity to be found that has subconscious brain activity based on past experience and genetic predisposition?
The "body" typing this is real. Although there's no AE of a brain in the body, surely it's safe to assume there is one? The brain/subconscious comments don't refer to AE. It's just story that I've read about this subject.
What is the AE of past experience?
There is no AE of past experience.
Since it is seen that you don't reside in a body, how is it known that other bodies might prioritise speed over accuracy?
How is it known that Life is just a long string of events reaching back millions of years?
This is story/content of thought.
What is the AE of time?
There is no AE of time.
Where is the 'me' that finds attention to detail important?
Where is this 'I' that is typing? Is there an 'I' doing the typing or is typing just happening?
There is no me typing or thinking these things. Those are descriptions of thought that arises. Apologies if that wasn't clear.
Where is the decision maker that is deciding anything?
I didn't mean to imply that there are actually decisions or a decision maker. What we would normally call "decisions" is just what is happening. Sometimes it seems like "I" am in control although that is not possible because there is no "I". Like "I" said, it's really hard to write about this clearly.
Where is the 'I' that has a brain that grabs ownership of every acation?
There is no "I" but thoughts continue to arise as though there were.

I hope this makes sense.

Thank you!

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:09 pm

Hi Jamie,

Thank you for clarifying your responses! You cleared it up so I could see exactly what you were referring to in your responses.

I am wondering if there an idea that there is an absolute reality which is AE and a relative reality which is everyday life?

Let’s look at the idea of a “brain” and “skull”.
What exactly is it that has a brain?
"Brain" and "skull" are labels that point to parts of reality, no? They are not owned. Have I missed something?
The label “brain” is the AE of thought and not the AE of a brain.
The image labelled “brain” is the AE of image and not the AE of a brain.

The label “skull” is the AE of thought and not the AE of a skull
The image labelled “skull” is the AE of image and not the AE of a skull.

Try this to examine the solidity of the head. Drop all thoughts and images.

Press a finger down into the top of this supposed head.
Notice what is actually present, is it a head? Or is it just a sensation of pressure and a story?

Do the same with a finger on each side of the head
Is a head actually found? Or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points?
Or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?


Go back and revisit the body exercise you did….did you find a body anywhere?
What is the AE of body?

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:20 pm

I am wondering if there an idea that there is an absolute reality which is AE and a relative reality which is everyday life?
I don't really understand this question. There's just reality but the only way to discuss experience is with common language and known concepts.
Press a finger down into the top of this supposed head.
Notice what is actually present, is it a head? Or is it just a sensation of pressure and a story?
The AE is of sensation + story, not of "head".
Do the same with a finger on each side of the head
Is a head actually found? Or are there just sensations again?
And is there anything between the pressure points?
Or is it just a thought that says there *must* be something between them?
The AE is the same as the previous test: Sensation + story. It is only thought saying there's anything between the pressure points.
Go back and revisit the body exercise you did….did you find a body anywhere?
What is the AE of body?
No – there was no body in AE. There is no AE of body. I just used it as a familiar concept to describe what I saw happening.

Thank you :)

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:06 am

Hi Jamie,

Sorry mate, the confusion lies with me. I misunderstood your previous answers!
I am wondering if there an idea that there is an absolute reality which is AE and a relative reality which is everyday life?
I don't really understand this question. There's just reality but the only way to discuss experience is with common language and known concepts.
Yes, there is only reality. Your answer clarified my question – thanks :)
What exactly is it that has a brain?
"Brain" and "skull" are labels that point to parts of reality, no? They are not owned. Have I missed something
The misunderstanding lies with me. I thought you meant that brain and skull pointed to the reality of a body. What you meant was that brain and skull pointed to actual experience of thought + sensation + image.

Okay..so what happens from here is I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the final questions you answered to see if they have any questions for you. This is to make sure that I haven’t missed something and that my pointing has pointed to you to realising there is no separate individual.

This may take a couple of days.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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forgetmenot
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby forgetmenot » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:00 pm

Hi Jamie,

Congratulations, and welcome through the Gateless Gate. There are no more questions to be answered.
It was such a pleasure guiding you as you took to it like duck to water! Thank you for being so willing to LOOK. You must just about despise that word by now (laughing).

You will have someone from LU contacting you to add you to the LU Aftercare Facebook group. We have a few Facebook groups some which are public and others that are closed.

I will send you a private message to get your Facebook name so that I can give it to Lex or Werner who will add you.

Once again...it has been an absolute pleasure.

Love Kay
Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists.

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jamie-e
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Re: Am I already through? Doubt makes it seem unlikely.

Postby jamie-e » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:50 pm

I definitely don't despise that word :)

Thank you Kay, for your patience and commitment to helping me. This has been a great experience.

Jamie <3


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