Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to dependan

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,
No there is not separate entity called self.
Everything is connected.
Putting this into practise is the challenge.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

No there is not separate entity called self.
Everything is connected.
Putting this into practise is the challenge.

Ok, there is no separate entity called self.

But what about 'creator of thoughts'? Is there one of these, in expereince? Can any entity be found creating thoughts?

Or 'Experiencer of experience'?

Is there one 'behid the scenes, pulling strings and making things happen'?

SInce there is no self, how do things happen? What about 'free will, choices and decisions'?


Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,
Hope all is well with your being.

SInce there is no self, how do things happen? What about 'free will, choices and decisions'?

Good questions, since I've started this , I've been calmer than usual, but much more lethargic. For example, the voice yelled "Get out of bed " this morning and then drifted off.
You've asked some very good questions in your last post. and my response would be , "I don't know".
Right now in this experience , I would say that we are limited by words fabricated by modern mankind to survive. Mankind uses words to survive, to communicate with others and to control their environment.
If I am to in anyway get in touch with what may be the "Truth" ,verbally obsessing, through internal dialogue, over romance, hygiene, appearance, being accepted, and surviving would have to not clutter my being. Who knows what is in/out there, maybe all is God, Dharma, Moksha, separate realities, maybe there is an alien or ghosts sitting beside me. Haven't a clue.
Take care,
Sandy

[ilazmit]

How beautiful!

Love is very important.

But is this the first time that you have found no 'I'?

Hello Jon,
To be completely honest, some of your references come across as though you assume that I am a Christian. Possibly because I used the word "Love". Culturally I am Christian, but in my heart and culturally brainwashed, I am a romantic. During intimate relations with someone I love, there is not "I'". This is the cult that I belong to. The romantic myth of love , soul mate, true love , ..It sells. and I would really love to not be consumed by this. I really appreciate all of your efforts. I think I am a tough egg to crack.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Hope all is well with your being.

Not sure I posess one, but thank you.

Good questions, since I've started this , I've been calmer than usual, but much more lethargic. For example, the voice yelled "Get out of bed " this morning and then drifted off.

Interesting.

If I am to in anyway get in touch with what may be the "Truth" ,verbally obsessing, through internal dialogue, over romance, hygiene, appearance, being accepted, and surviving would have to not clutter my being.

You're certain there is a 'being' that can be 'cluttered' ? Have you looked for the 'cluttered one'? What does it look like?

Is 'a being' found, full of clutter?

Notice the thought-clutter. Where is the one that is supposed to be cluttered up?

Never mind about 'Truth' just look and see if there is a 'you' that in any way has to turn up for duty as a finite container for thoughts?


Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
There does seem to be an egg-shell mind that contains thoughts. If it doesn't turn up nothing seems to get done. If you can crack it please let me in on the secret. Sitting in the park was nice, lasted 2 minutes before I got cold and restless.
I truly appreciate your time and patience,
Sandy

[ilazmit]

Jon,
Logically I get your drift. I cannot survive without oxygen and my inter-action with my surroundings. I am one with my environment. Experientially I only have moments where I sense a deep connection with my surroundings, more so now then ever. It is like breathing. It comes and goes.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Now, stick with me and don't dismiss the next questions out of hand...

There does seem to be an egg-shell mind that contains thoughts.

If it were imagined that there is an egg-shell sourrounding a mind that is 'me', then that would be stressful and claustrophobic.

Look for the reality of this container. This egg-shell. Isn't it a metaphor?

Does a metaphor make for a thing that is real? Imaginitively an idea may appear to 'exist'. A car crash may be imagined and vividly described but does that mean real people are really getting killed in that idea?

I get the impression that perhaps you value poetry? And metaphors can be very beautiful, but in this inquiry we have to distinguish between what is imagined (metaphor) and what can actually be sensed. You can pick up an egg and throw it. That may be worth trying. How would you pick up a mind and throw it? Let alone find it?

Can a mind be picked up? Can it be seen? Is there one? Look for it.

There is the thought 'I have an egg-shell mind',

Where is it, in experience? The mind, let alone an egg-shell containing it?

Do let me know if I'm wrong?


best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Do let me know if I'm wrong?

I really, really appreciate all that you are doing. I was initially rejected twice by your colleagues, I think they thought I was looking for a self help group or something. And then you picked up the thread.
Rationally, I think I understand what you are saying, however, to put it into practice is something else. Of course we are connected, immersed, at one with ,united, in direct experience with the whole world around us. I have come to understand this. My thoughts are a product of my history, and culture, without the world I do not survive. There is no Sandy.
Experientially, the thoughts when they become words, they hurt inside . Specifically when they are thoughts about having been rejected by a loved one. I might go out on a limb and say that thoughts are not real As soon as something is vocalized it is objectified and not subjective. It is no longer a direct experience. However, I think we need words to survive . I would love to be adept at letting the sensation of pain due to rejection drift off like a cloud in the sky. I would love to be at one with the river of life and just flow. But I;m still clinging to the buoy.
I'm working at this. Thanks for your patience . Gotta run,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

I'm conscious that I could keep firing questions at you but none of them will do much good unless you are prepared to turn around (so to speak) and LOOK at the questions I pose. (I am not moaning at you, by the way, just encouraging...)

I would love to be adept at letting the sensation of pain due to rejection drift off like a cloud in the sky. I would love to be at one with the river of life and just flow. But I;m still clinging to the buoy.

I know painful thoughts come and go and there is really not much that can be done to avoid them when they turn up.

I'm going to be a pain now and ask you to tell me exactly where this 'buoy' is? In fact, what is it?

Where is the implied ocean? How is a person actually going to drown?

There is a thought (and quite possily a feeling that goes with it, maybe even a bodily sensation)...that there is a 'someone' that 'clings' to something for safety.

What is this need to 'survive' and who/what would need to do that?

Isn't this a bit like the egg-shell surrounding a mind that is full of clutter? Where are these things? Where s the one that is conditioned by all this?

Best,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,
There is no Buoy, or drowning... there just is.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

:-)

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Could you say a little more? I mean, it's a lovely statement

But what 'just is'?

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hi Jon,

[quoteThere is no Buoy, or drowning... there just is.][/quote]
If life is like a river, something that is in constant flow and happening. there is not buoy, nothing to hang onto. You gotta go with the flow. any clinging is a lie. Letting go of the imaginative buoy doesn't cause drowning , it is living. Working at living.
Take care,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

If life is like a river, something that is in constant flow and happening. there is not buoy, nothing to hang onto. You gotta go with the flow. any clinging is a lie. Letting go of the imaginative buoy doesn't cause drowning , it is living.

Great! Perfect.

Working at living.

Is there 'someone' that 'works at living'? Or does living flow completely naturally, with the thought-story 'someone does the work of living' or 'makes living happen'?

What makes things happen? Do you .choose, decide, exercise free will.? Or are these also stories about what happens?

Thank you

Jon