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[rabbit]

Is there a need for looking or searching?

Ah, this question. It always perplexes.

The logic says that if there is no self, then who can look, looking for what?

But knowing the logic does not appear to be sufficient. The realization only very rarely seems to come without some looking, without some effort/need, if only to give attention to direct experience. If there were no need for looking, then why bother starting up LU?

Who makes this effort? What is effort? The best I can see is that 'effort' is something that is felt when we identify as a doer of something that is just happening anyways. As long as there is still some identification with "I the seeker" there will still be some feeling of need or effort.

Lack of searching and effort--'whatever happens is just fine'--can so often be just a rationalization for the same old habits. But getting too intent on me the seeker and what I must do just creates new habits and identity--rife with judgments.

So, bottom line is I don't know if there's a need for looking.

Is there a need for judging when there is looking without belonging?

No. Judge what? Most judgments are of self or somebody else. (Yet the judgments still come)

Focusing attention on direct experience (i.e. not falling into usual habits of thought) can feel like effort. But identifying with all those judgments and maintaining those identities really takes up much more energy.

[0kay]

Yes. Is there -now- a doer who is focusing attention, who is knowing the logic or is it all well done work by thoughts on a to-do-list nobody made?

Is -now- searching anymore? What should we look for in the next question?

[rabbit]

Is there -now- a doer who is focusing attention, who is knowing the logic or is it all well done work by thoughts on a to-do-list nobody made? Is -now- searching anymore?

Good one. :-)

There is never anything now. Things are perceived always in retrospect. The projection of some concept onto the direct sensations.

Planning, patterns, trends, time, fussing about the need for searching. Always entangled in memories and thoughts. Can't fuss now. If there's no fussing, then who is fussing?

What should we look for in the next question?

Is there anybody who thinks there is something more to be done, some blockage to find and remove?
Who wants to know? Really--not in some thought-model.

[0kay]

Well :) Here are some questions. If you decide to answer them, when it looks good to you, please do.
Other guide will look about and when there are no more questions on both sides we may continue discussions in closed groups on facebook. (thumbup)

Otherwise, if you want to stay here for a while, let´s talk about what is not clear about these questions:


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[0kay]

Oops, it looks if i misunderstood your last posting.

Is there anybody who thinks there is something more to be done, some blockage to find and remove?
Who wants to know? Really--not in some thought-model.

is your answer what we have to look for now.
Yes. Forget the five questions for now and let´s do some more direct experiences.

Is there anybody who thinks there is something more to be done, some blockage to find and remove?

Yes. Is there a thought, a belief? Is there an owner of thoughts and beliefs?

Who wants to know? Really--not in some thought-model.

Yes. Is there someone who wants to know or is it a thought as a question?
What makes this thought so urgent?

[rabbit]

Hi Okay,
Sorry for the slow response. My bug (sickness) got a second wind and just about knocked me out.

Is there anybody who thinks there is something more to be done, some blockage to find and remove?

Yes. Is there a thought, a belief? Is there an owner of thoughts and beliefs?

No, just thoughts. Progress, cleansing, whatever are all just stories. None can be seen in this moment.

Who wants to know?

Is there someone who wants to know or is it a thought as a question?

I don't know. Maybe this awareness/subjectivity that is watching the thoughts?
Take away thoughts. Disregard energetic sensations. Take away hopes and feelings. And there is nothing left to perceive. But still seeing.

What makes this thought so urgent?

It is cannibalistic. It devours the asker. And if there is no asker . . .

[0kay]

quote="rabbit": Hi Okay,
Sorry for the slow response. My bug (sickness) got a second wind and just about knocked me out.

Last year i was in your position with flu, hope it´s getting better soon!

Maybe this awareness/subjectivity that is watching the thoughts? Take away thoughts. Disregard energetic sensations. Take away hopes and feelings. And there is nothing left to perceive. But still seeing.

Is this awareness/subjectivity a feeling only or is it an entity of its own, separated?

Referring to your want-to-look-for "Who wants to know" i´ve asked "What makes this thought so urgent?"
It is cannibalistic. It devours the asker. And if there is no asker . . .
Is there someone cannibalistic? What is happening with thoughts, i and emotion when there are "Want to know" and "Who wants to know".

[rabbit]

Is this awareness/subjectivity a feeling only or is it an entity of its own, separated?

Once you look at the awareness it becomes a thought-object. It becomes separated and is no longer a subjectivity. So there is really nothing that can be said or thought about "it".

Is there someone cannibalistic? What is happening with thoughts, i and emotion when there are "Want to know" and "Who wants to know".

When this question (who wants to know?) is asked—the only answer is nobody. No seeker. That is how it is 'cannibalistic'--a question with an answer that makes it impossible to ask the question; and leaves nobody who is interested in the answer.

Emotions associated with this (Not endorsing, just reporting):

This was the goal, wasn't it? To see there is no seeker.

But if there is no seeker, then how are we going to do this? Just give up? Then what? This can't be enough yet. There has to be someplace further than this. Have to keep pushing to see more clearly.

Also bodily sensations, but can't really distinguish them from the flu or being cold.

[0kay]

You may look again as often as needed, if there is an i, a seeker, an asker.

if there is no seeker, then how are we going to do this?

Push a glass of water to ran out.

Why dis this happen?
What happened before, why?
What happened before, why?
What happened before, why?

Is there a seeker, does this need a seeker?

[rabbit]

Push a glass of water to ran out.
Why dis this happen?
What happened before, why?
Is there a seeker, does this need a seeker?

Not entirely sure that I understand the question.
Here are some answers from different perspectives:
--Can't find anybody who pours water. Certainly not a seeker.
--Every time the glass is tipped, the water runs out. Can't stop it. No seeker/guide needed to guide it. At most, the seeker could put his hand in the way and make a mess.
--As far as the water is concerned; it does not matter whether it is in the glass, in the sewer or in the ocean. It is still what it is. It's seemingly separate identity within the glass had nothing to do with what it was.

My tipping the glass is the same natural process as the water falling out. Whether I think so or not.

[0kay]

Your question ...how we going to do this, without a seeker...

That is something what we can look for...
Look what happens and what happens next.
Does this need a seeker, a doer, a decider? Is there a doer, seeker or decider at any time?

[rabbit]

Your question ...how we going to do this, without a seeker...
That is something what we can look for...
Look what happens and what happens next.
Does this need a seeker, a doer, a decider? Is there a doer, seeker or decider at any time?

Can't decide when to decide, or what to decide. Sometimes things happen that a decision had said would happen. No clear causal connection. Just coincidence when they do. Plenty of times they don't happen.

Things happen, saying "Look what you did!" (which is nothing). And then "you should do this or that." Should, should, should. Who is telling who to do something?

And if I stopped listening to 'should'? The prospect makes me feel nervous, jittery, irresponsible. But would anything change?

[0kay]

Thoughts are guests, come and go, but we don't have to serve them tea. :-)

[0kay]

Watching these thoughts and addictive feelings... is there a difference to listen and follow them, or trying to deny something? What happens when there is denying something?

Rise the left arm or the right.

[rabbit]

Watching these thoughts and addictive feelings... is there a difference to listen and follow them, or trying to deny something?

Denials are also thoughts, reactive thoughts. “I shouldn’t think so much, I should be calm. Look, you’re not calm again, caught up in those thoughts again. Shouldn’t do that.” The thoughts just bounce back and forth off each other.

Some so-called addictive substances are are attractive but don't seem to be a problem for me (tobacco, opiates, ice cream, coffee), while others seem to cause more difficulty (porn, thoughts). What is the difference? In the former, temptation thoughts are usually ignored, but occasionally indulged. When indulging, thoughts come up like, “Be careful, you’ll get addicted. Don’t do that it’s not healthy,” or “Oh, it would be great if I could always feel like that.” But I don’t take those thoughts very seriously. It was nice and then I had enough and it’s over. No effort, no interest.

Porn and the general yammering of thoughts have seemed more of a problem. Each is associated with emotional ups and downs. Temptation thoughts tend to spark a little moral drama of reactions. Indulgence is accompanied by a commentary of ‘you shouldn’t do that so much, you have other goals, this is just a waste, it’s embarrassing, what a loser.’

The porn and thoughts per se aren’t the problem so much as identification with this habit of criticism and reaction. Thoughts weren’t even perceived as a ‘problem’ until after I started the seeker stuff. And the result of perceiving it as a problem was not fewer thoughts, but that the emotional downs became more common than the ups. I’ve become caught in a story (better: a new story has created a ‘me’)

What happens when there is denying something?

The compulsive urge to indulge is a way to avoid boredom and lack--including lack of 'me'. To deny accomplishes that goal just as well as to indulge.

The fear is that if I stop this little moral drama and denial, I would just give way to indulgence and addiction. But moral drama is another indulgence. And I have no evidence this fear is true.

There is no way out within the terms of this drama. To insist I will no longer indulge in moral drama is just more moral drama. If it were somehow up to me, I would choose to deal with everything like I deal with the no-problem substances. So clearly it is not up to me.

Do I really have a choice to indulge or not (right or left hand)? Can I find somebody who has a choice?