Returning for another shot

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

Honestly, I do feel something has changed for you. Doubt is a thought + a feeling. Is it believed? Selfing does still happen. Right now, you are coming to me with thought.

You seem to see. I am thinking the questions will help clarify. Other guides will look at your answers if I pass them over. They may have different views. They may have questions that will help clarify. One question is 'How does it feel to see this?'. I figure you can be honest here. List the doubt.

I am not sure where to point you now. What is arising, here and now? Do you see doubt as the content of thought? Do you see yourself as a person, an entity, a decision maker, in control? What are you?

Yes we get wrapped up again in the story, but we see through it. Maybe not straight away. But we can look and see. Is that not your experience?

Ask anything you like... I'll do my best!

Aragon

[marknathan]

Thanks Aragon. I'll have a crack at the questions so, and we can take it from there. This evening got away from me between one thing and another so it'll have to be tomorrow night if that's ok.
Funny thing, I was in a bit of a bad humour this evening, and it was the sort of humour that would normally have been quite consuming and maybe have led to speaking out of turn or being a little unkind. I won't say the humour lifted (it was mostly blood-sugar related anyway) but the thoughts were seen as just that, the story was seen, and it had less of a hold as a result.
Anyway, I'll check in tomorrow properly, with some answers to those final questions.
Take care,
Mark

[Aragon]

Sounds good. Look forward to hearing from you :-)

[marknathan]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't. It's a mirage. There never was an 'I'.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

'I' is an idea; a product of the imagination; thought-content that claims personal, separate independent existence for the experience of living. When it starts is a little more difficult to answer. Belief in the illusion is passed on by society, by our parents and those around us when we are very young. It's reinforced by language - 'you', 'me', 'yours', 'mine'. It's also seemingly supported by our experience – we see other people, other embodiments of life, who have different experiences, think different things, have different opinions, and then assume they are 'other'. Uniqueness is taken for actual separateness.
How does it work in my own experience? It's just a load of unquestioned assumptions. Thoughts arise claiming ownership of experience and simply aren't questioned. So, someone says something insulting to me. Sensation arises in the belly, a contraction (I know this bit is an abstraction, but presumably that sensation comes from the deeply held belief that 'I' have been insulted, or am in danger, perhaps). Then the thought arises “He just insulted me”, followed by a chain of thoughts creating a story.
I've talked a lot about the doubt that has arisen, and it still does arise. You said in one of your last posts that doubt is a thought + feeling, but is it believed? I honestly don;t know if I believe it. When I look at it, it's seen through. I mean, when I ask, well ok, do I believe there is a self? Looking, no, there is nothing to find, and it just makes sense. But... :-) I suppose I expected a more continuous feeling of expansiveness, in spite of the fact that selfing continue for another few fetters. But I'm straying into the next question...

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Nothing like what I expected to :-) That's if it's been seen at all... There's been a relaxing. Once seeing started to happen, it seemed a lot simpler, and there was a letting go. I'm really enjoying sitting in meditation, and want to do it quite a bit. I've been fairly quiet around friends, not particularly interested in chatting. I've been told I seem a bit distracted. There has been more of a sense of connection with other people; looking at them, and appreciating the flow of life that they are, wondering at what is actually going on... I love really looking at people when I'm talking to them, really listening, and thinking “what is this?!” .And less reactivity. Reactions still happen – I've been annoyed, impatient, etc, but I don't invest as much now – the story is seen ( a lot of the time) and the emotion just fades.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I'm not sure that there was one moment. I think it happened over a few days, and maybe is still happening. One moment that stands out was during a sit; I was holding in mind some of the questions you gave me, Aragon; connecting to felt sensation, the listening, the breath. And then I just let go – there was a letting go - and there was just experience – sound, sensation, touch, the breath, thoughts – all one flow and nothing underneath, no breather, listener, toucher, thinker. There was joy. I think I expected more of that “intense” experience of no-self to persist, to be felt almost continuously. But it's not like that. It's an understanding, that when remembered brings a certain peace or relaxing into life, letting it flow.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

There is no free will, only the illusion of it. I can say, well, I choose to pick up this cup. But that's just a thought. I didn't choose that thought. And the related action – picking up the cup – may or may not happen. When it happens, it just does. But the origin of the action can't be found, only a thought saying “my hand”, “my cup” “I picked it up”, etc.
In immediate experience in the moment, I have absolutely no idea what makes things happen. They just do. I can extrapolate, and talk about conditioned co-production which, while a compelling idea, is just an idea. It may well be true, but in experience moment to moment, I can't see the mechanism of it. Only a thought which arises analysing a series of choices made and concluding that there is a pattern there. That may be accurate, but in the moment, thoughts just arise from nowhere, actions just happen.
There can be no responsibility. For society to function, I suppose it's necessary to ascribe responsibilty to people for their actions, but how can they be responsible. It isn't that they don't have free will; it's that there is no one there to have free will. There is simply response. Arising response. Again, presumably dependent on conditioning. Like water flowing in different directions around rocks and branches in the stream – natural, blameless and beautiful.

6) Anything to add?

I don't think so, not right now anyway. Except to say thank you Aragon for your patience in this conversation, and for sticking with it.

Have I gone through the gate? Well, there's no one to do so, and it doesn't really seem to matter somehow. What is, is. I've no idea :-)

[Aragon]

Mark,

Thank you for your beautiful answers. I really enjoyed reading them.

I am going to pass these over for some other guides to look at. There may be some questions. I will pass them on if there are.

Let's just go with it, see what happens. What else can we do ;-)

Aragon

[Aragon]

Hi Mark.

I have a few questions for you.... take your time, and answer when ready....

1: Are you willing to notice what is happening in direct experience at any cost? Even if it means that every thing you have heard ‘should’ happen may not happen? Are you willing to give up every idea of how it should be in exchange for seeing what is true, even if the experience is mundane, uneventful, unlike anything you have read or heard? Or is there something else you are looking for?

2. You said: “The feeling that I exist is still there though. The feeling of a someone. But it kind of falls apart when looked at closely.”

Q: If it falls apart when looked at closely, what is it then that arises to claim there is a separate entity? Is there an ‘aliveness’ that thoughts are claiming as ‘me’? If the feeling still persists, which of the senses are you feeling this with? Please look carefully in direct experience (excluding thoughts - labels, assumptions, theories, commentaries).

3. If it is recognized that ‘I’ is a thought only, is there an expectation that such thoughts would no longer arise after seeing through the illusion? Or can it be enough to see that all claims to a separate entity of ‘me’, ‘I’ reside in thought only?

4. There is no difference between what is "believable" and what is not "believable", both are actual experience of thought, the only difference (so to speak) is the content of the each seeming believable and unbelievable thought. So what exactly is it that can believe or not believe?

5. Do you think you were expecting Enlightenment or to clearly see the illusion of self?

Look forward to your answers,

Aragon

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

The above questions were from other guides but I think they open up some really useful areas. Just a few pointers from me...

1. try and stay with doubt. Really see what it is. See what is present in direct experience. Is it real or is it imagined? Look closely

2. We've talked a lot about expectations. But have you asked. What is actual experience of expectation? What is actual experience of Enlightenment? What is actual experience of Stream Entry, The Fetters, etc etc. Can you find these things in your actual experience? Can you see them for what they are?

3. Relating to question 4 above. What is it that says that one thought is true, one thought is false? What is it that says one thought is to be believed or not believed?

I'm probably just rephrasing the other questions, but hopefully it will help!!

See this as an opportunity. The guides have lots of experience and can really help clarify.

Be well,

Aragon

[marknathan]

Thanks Aragon - they're some great questions. Nothing gets past the guides :-)
I may not get to writing an answer tonight but certainly by tomorrow night.
All the best,
Mark

[Aragon]

No worries! Here's a resource you might like to check out. On the LU homepage under Quotes App. http://liberationunleashed.com/enlightening-quotes-app/

[marknathan]

Hi Aragon,
I've answered the guides' questions, and then yours, below:

1: Are you willing to notice what is happening in direct experience at any cost? Even if it means that every thing you have heard ‘should’ happen may not happen? Are you willing to give up every idea of how it should be in exchange for seeing what is true, even if the experience is mundane, uneventful, unlike anything you have read or heard? Or is there something else you are looking for?

Yes, at any cost. I'm seeing more and more how naive my expectations have been. They're just ideas, thoughts. It's hard to ignore the thoughts, but they are seen as just that. I don't care how mundane and uneventful it is, once it's true.

2. You said: “The feeling that I exist is still there though. The feeling of a someone. But it kind of falls apart when looked at closely.”

Q: If it falls apart when looked at closely, what is it then that arises to claim there is a separate entity? Is there an ‘aliveness’ that thoughts are claiming as ‘me’? If the feeling still persists, which of the senses are you feeling this with? Please look carefully in direct experience (excluding thoughts - labels, assumptions, theories, commentaries).

By “aliveness”, I was referring to the sum of experience; felt sensation, taste, seeing, hearing, thinking. There is an “aliveness” to these things. What clams them as mine is just a thought, thoughts of a story of “me”.

3. If it is recognized that ‘I’ is a thought only, is there an expectation that such thoughts would no longer arise after seeing through the illusion? Or can it be enough to see that all claims to a separate entity of ‘me’, ‘I’ reside in thought only?

Yes, that would seem to be enough. The expectation was around the change that would be effected after seeing, which relates to question 1; these expectations are the product of imagination.

4. There is no difference between what is "believable" and what is not "believable", both are actual experience of thought, the only difference (so to speak) is the content of the each seeming believable and unbelievable thought. So what exactly is it that can believe or not believe?

I don't know. What sees? Seeing just arises. It's understanding, which in experience precedes thought. What I've been wary of is being fascinated by the idea of no-self and just taking it on as another belief, without really seeing it. So the question is how do you know when seeing has happened? Thoughts arise comparing the experience with others', but they're just a story; how can anyone know another's experience?

5. Do you think you were expecting Enlightenment or to clearly see the illusion of self?

I definitely wasn't expecting Enlightenment, given my limited knowledge of the Fetters. What drew me to LU in the first place was the accessibility of seeing no-self, that it might not be some virtually unattainable realisation requiring years of intensive meditation practice. That it might be staring us in the face.
The fact is I can't know what seeing no-self is like. Thoughts about it are just thoughts. “Selfing” continues; “I” thoughts continue to arise but they're seen through. I don't know what else to say. Is that enough?

Aragon's questions:

1. try and stay with doubt. Really see what it is. See what is present in direct experience. Is it real or is it imagined? Look closely

It's sensation and thought. A sensation in the belly that's labelled as anxiety; further thoughts arise like “but you don't feel joy all the time”, “you still feel separate”, and comparisons with others. It is imagined. Staying with experience, that's all there is.

2. We've talked a lot about expectations. But have you asked. What is actual experience of expectation? What is actual experience of Enlightenment? What is actual experience of Stream Entry, The Fetters, etc etc. Can you find these things in your actual experience? Can you see them for what they are?

They're ideas, models, abstractions. Labels, actually. In experience, they are nothing.

3. Relating to question 4 above. What is it that says that one thought is true, one thought is false? What is it that says one thought is to be believed or not believed?

Another thought.


It's just the habitual pattern of thought – at the moment, a lot about inadequacy; “my” inadequacy, the inadequacy of “my” answers. Then the thought “I feel down”. Then I look at that, and it's not true, in experience. Who feel's down? There's sensation in the stomach, thoughts that just arise. How to put it... Well, the story again. The same tired old story. Then the thought “I'm sick of it!” Haha!! It's actually kind of hilarious, buying into this bullshit. There's nothing here to pin any of this on.

Thanks for the tip about the app, by the way. It's been my constant companion since last June or thereabouts.

Talk soon

Mark

[Aragon]

Hey Mark,

Thanks got your answers! I'll take them back. I'll post again soonish but may be a little while as I'm not sure what timezones were working with!

You take care,

Aragon

[Aragon]

Mark,

There are no more questions from the guides!!

I am going to PM you. Someone will be in touch soon(ish) with further info re where to go from here.

It has been a pleasure. Well done for sticking at it!

Speak soon,

Aragon