Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to dependan

[ilazmit]

Thanks for your dedication Jon . I really appreciate this.
I would say my sense of self is most obviously centered in feelings of pain due to rejection, frustration, anger, etc. and the place I feel it most would be in the gut , or on the top of the back of my head. When in a state of euphoria , I don't think I am so very aware of my sense of self. I could be mistaken but I think losing the sense of self causes euphoria. When looking at a photo or in the mirror I definitely get a sense of self.[/quote] Working on the quote thing. I would like to elaborate on the "Self"" concept. I would say "she" pops up when there is effort involved. and she isn't always that nice. Likes to regurgitate stuff, possibly for fear of forgetting, or when effort is involved , She is a nasty motivator. For example, "move'', "you didn't do that fast enough" ,"Smile", seems to be her favorite mantras. Then there's the extreme sister,"I'll do it Later". But honestly, Let the voice of pain and suffering , or of motivation drift off, without attachment is very soothing. Don't know if this makes any sense, and I hope the quote thingy works. Thanks again.

[ilazmit]

I'd go with simply pain flowing and hurting.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ilazmit,

Sorry I am posting late today. Some problems with wi-fi.

Thanks or your replies.

Working on the quote thing. I would like to elaborate on the "Self"" concept. I would say "she" pops up when there is effort involved. and she isn't always that nice. Likes to regurgitate stuff, possibly for fear of forgetting, or when effort is involved , She is a nasty motivator. For example, "move'', "you didn't do that fast enough" ,"Smile", seems to be her favorite mantras. Then there's the extreme sister,"I'll do it Later". But honestly, Let the voice of pain and suffering , or of motivation drift off, without attachment is very soothing. Don't know if this makes any sense, and I hope the quote thingy works. Thanks again.

No worries about the quote thingy. It can take a couple of tries. You’ll notice that two ‘quote’ words pop up with little brackets between them? The trick is to get your cursor between those little brackets and ‘paste’ the copied text into that space. It’s tricky usng a mobile phone for this, by the way.

what you have said does make sense however it's your next statement that is most intriguing:

I'd go with simply pain flowing and hurting.

This implies that you looked at the pain as I suggetsed? Well done! That's not particularly easy when the pain is intense. But very interesting that you'd go with simply pain flowing and hurting. Look again, a few times and see if it's possible to find an entity or 'I' that is busy 'experiencing pain', or if the immediate sensation of pain just is?

Do you notice that there are also thoughts that appear along side the direct experience of pain? I mean any sorts of thoughts. They could be saying something about the pain, but they are not actually the pain experience its self are they? Does it seem that they are like something extra, like a commentary that is added on to the actual experience?

Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Thanks for your dedication Jon . I really appreciate this.
I would say my sense of self is most obviously centered in feelings of pain due to rejection, frustration, anger, etc. and the place I feel it most would be in the gut , or on the top of the back of my head. When in a state of euphoria , I don't think I am so very aware of my sense of self. I could be mistaken but I think losing the sense of self causes euphoria. When looking at a photo or in the mirror I definitely get a sense of self.

Working on the quote thing. I would like to elaborate on the "Self"" concept. I would say "she" pops up when there is effort involved. and she isn't always that nice; likes to regurgitate stuff, possibly for fear of forgetting. "She" is a nasty motivator, for example, "move'',or "you didn't do that fast enough" ,and"Smile", seem to be her favorite mantras. Then there's the extreme opposite "sister"", who's mantra is,"I'll do it Later". But honestly, letting the voice of pain and of suffering , or of motivation drift off without attachment is very soothing. Don't know if this makes any sense, and I hope the quote thingy works. Thanks again.[/quote]

[ilazmit]

Thanks Jon, I was editing and working on the quote thingy while you responded to my reply.

[/quote][/quote]Do you notice that there are also thoughts that appear along side the direct experience of pain? I mean any sorts of thoughts. They could be saying something about the pain, but they are not actually the pain experience its self are they? Does it seem that they are like something extra, like a commentary that is added on to the actual experience?[quote][/quote]
Yes I do think that there is a running commentary to the pain, frustration, or effort. I call them the twisted sisters. For example, working on the quote thingy involved effort, there was running commentary, but not too much when I was concentrating. Mastered quote thingy, elation, no commentary. too happy. twisted sister has to jump on my shoulder and say , "you're dumb that took you too long".

[ilazmit]

If I focus on the running commentary it seems to dissipate. I have got to work on this for awhile. Thanks so much for your dedication Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ilazmit,

If I focus on the running commentary it seems to dissipate. I have got to work on this for awhile. Thanks so much for your dedication Jon

You're very welcome.

Good. It's enough just to notice that the feeling of pain or anger happens, but not 'to someone'. And that thoughts or commentary appear sometimes too, but these thoughts are not actually the pain. Thoughts may 'say' things about the pain but the pain is its own direct experience? Does that make sense?

I am not asking you to get rid of thoughts. That may sound like a nice idea but for now, just notice how there is immediate experience (on the one hand) and thoughts that appear (on the other). Here is an example you can try:

Sit for a while somewhere you will not be disturbed and just notice whatever is heard. This can be anything from quiet sounds, such as breathing, to the noise of a fridge, or birds outside, or muffled conversation somewhere. Notice whatever is heard.

Conventionally it is said that 'I hear', and it is assumed that there is a 'me' that is 'doing hearing'. Or also, that 'me' is the body, that is doing hearing. So right here and now, is 'a body' found in the experience of hearing? Or is there simply hearing happening?

Are 'ears hearing'? In other words, in the actual experience of heaing, are 'ears doing hearing' found as part of it? Is a 'me' found doing hearing? Simply notice this experience of hearing.


Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Nothing is voluntarily doing anything when a sound happens. It just happens. Have a Great Day Jon. I'll work on your exercise/

[JonathanR]

Nothing is voluntarily doing anything when a sound happens. It just happens

How does this feel, to notice this?

If a distant sound is heard, a car maybe, or a bird outside, is it possible to find a line where 'hearing' ends and 'sound' begins? A line beyond which 'you' end and 'sound' begins?

best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

So you are saying that I am enmeshed with all that is around me? I am the sound, The sound is me.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ilazmit,

So you are saying that I am enmeshed with all that is around me? I am the sound, The sound is me.

Well, I am not interested in teaching beliefs at all. That's why I suggest these investigations. Surely the really interesting and valuable thing is a discovery that you make for yourself.

But has this been your experience? Being enmeshed? Is that how it seems when you try this hearing investigation?

Can an 'I' be found that is enmeshed? What is it that hears?


Thank you,

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi again Ilazmit,

Just re-reading some of the things you said earlier...

I would say my sense of self is most obviously centered in feelings of pain due to rejection, frustration, anger, etc. and the place I feel it most would be in the gut , or on the top of the back of my head. When in a state of euphoria , I don't think I am so very aware of my sense of self. I could be mistaken but I think losing the sense of self causes euphoria. When looking at a photo or in the mirror I definitely get a sense of self.Working on the quote thing. I would like to elaborate on the "Self"" concept. I would say "she" pops up when there is effort involved. and she isn't always that nice. Likes to regurgitate stuff, possibly for fear of forgetting, or when effort is involved , She is a nasty motivator. For example, "move'', "you didn't do that fast enough" ,"Smile", seems to be her favorite mantras. Then there's the extreme sister,"I'll do it Later". But honestly, Let the voice of pain and suffering , or of motivation drift off, without attachment is very soothing.

I have been encouraging you to look at the hearing exercise, which can be very good. But there is also a lot in what you said above that we can look at. Is there still the experience of pain and rejection and anger in the gut or on the top of the back of your head?


Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

I definitely feel enmeshed with the two sisters. It's a "voice-over" to a scenario, or a voice in itself, who I thought was me. When the one voice-over the " constructive and impatient one" flairs up in anger; stepping back and saying, this is not me, (which is another voice over ), is soothing. The " laissez-faire" voice-over is less apparent as is the experience of pain, rejection and anger in the top of my head and my gut.
My understanding of hearing is something that has no volition. Likewise with sight. Touch on the other hand , for me , involves a "me". I hope this makes some sense. Thanks again Jon.

[JonathanR]

Hi Ilazmit,

I definitely feel enmeshed with the two sisters. It's a "voice-over" to a scenario, or a voice in itself, who I thought was me

You say 'thought was' does that mean there is a change in the way the voice is seen? Do you feel differently about this voice?

What I'm trying to get at is do 'you' cause the voice, or, does the voice-over seem to just show up whenever it does?

Could it be prevented from appearing?

When the one voice-over the " constructive and impatient one" flairs up in anger; stepping back and saying, this is not me, (which is another voice over ), is soothing. The " laissez-faire" voice-over is less apparent as is the experience of pain, rejection and anger in the top of my head and my gut.

Does it seem that these voices show up whether they are welcome to do so or not?

My understanding of hearing is something that has no volition. Likewise with sight. Touch on the other hand , for me , involves a "me". I hope this makes some sense.

OK. When you say 'understanding', is that intellectual understanding, or is it coming from directly noticing that there is no 'doer' in hearing and seeing?

Touch can seem rather 'close to home'. Try this:

Become aware of whatever parts of the body are in contact with the seat or chair. Notice the actual sensation, of pressure, or perhaps warmth, or even slight discomfort, where body-meets-chair. Right now, in that sensation, is there a 'self'' that is making it happen? Is there an experience of 'a body' 'doing Touch'? Or is there the sensation alone, (plus, perhaps, thoughts appearing)?

Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

What I'm trying to get at is do 'you' cause the voice, or, does the voice-over seem to just show up whenever it does? Could it be prevented from appearing

Voice over shows up like a little squirrel nattering away. Can't prevent it and I have no control. I can choose to not get attached to it, but there is still another voice choosing to not get attached. The voice over shuts off when I am dancing. laughing with others or concentrating . It is very difficult to disconnect when sitting alone in silence.
I grasp the concept,

Become aware of whatever parts of the body are in contact with the seat or chair. Notice the actual sensation, of pressure, or perhaps warmth, or even slight discomfort, where body-meets-chair. Right now, in that sensation, is there a 'self'' that is making it happen? Is there an experience of 'a body' 'doing Touch'? Or is there the sensation alone, (plus, perhaps, thoughts appearing)?

When sitting in a chair I do not feel a sense of self, or rather boundary between me and chair. When touching a loved one I feel a sense of self . I feel love.