Confusion...some sticking points in direct inquiry. the idea

[forgetmenot]

Hi Brenden,

Fantastic post, Brenden! You have really embraced looking and you have done some really nice looking! Thank you! :)

A constant labelling.

Yes! Even when the mind is seemingly quiet, as in meditation, there is still thought going on, as one is still aware of surroundings, sounds, sensations, smells and so on, and the mind labels them without us really being aware of the labelling…until we stop and look!

The thoughts now questioning where these thoughts come from, where they go, whether I could stop or control them, who is this I who could do such a thing?

Can thoughts question? Or do thoughts that look like questions come and go like all other thoughts?

To think there is a break in thought is thought in itself. To think I am the thinker is thought, to think I can control these thoughts is rooted in the notion that I am a something that can do such a thing. Thoughts, and thoughts cannot think, nor do they know anything.

Bloody marvelous! :)

So just to really bring what thoughts are home….sit again for 10-15 or so minutes in a quiet place, close your eyes and once again just notice thoughts.

Where are they coming from?
Where are they going?
Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

There was the image of the thought body holding an object labelled cup.

So the image of body is AE of colour (image) and not AE of body
The label ‘cup’ is AE of thought and not AE of cup
The image of cup is AE of colour and not AE of cup.
The sensation thought of as “holding cup” is AE of sensation and not of a hand holding a cup

So is there actual experience of a body, a cup and a holding of a cup, or is there just the experience of colour + sensation + thought?

Noticed THE experience that IS the taste, smell, sight, touch and sound, experiencing just that. It was what was happening in the moment, the idea of me or the body experiencing this was and is purely thought, the overlay of thought obscuring the actual experience of drinking a coffee.
Raw experience ‘veiled’ by thought ABOUT it.

Yes, exactly “raw experience” that is overlayed by thought about it which is story/fiction!
Really really nice looking!

Thank you. I ‘got it’ but that too is thought, the intellectual understanding as you correctly highlighted. That I who thinks he gets it is thought in itself. Grateful. There is no actual experience OF...only AM...AS.

Hmmm…."that I who thinks he gets it is thought in itself". Could you elaborate more on this please so I am understanding what you mean?

Love Kay

[brenden]

Thank you Kay, it is appreciated.
I really enjoyed the looking, really probing deeply. I am grateful.

Can thoughts question? Or do thoughts that look like questions come and go like all other thoughts?

Thoughts are simply thought...they of themselves can do no-thing. Thoughts only appear as questions and go like all other thoughts. Yes.

Where are they coming from?Where are they going?

From no-where to no-where. The attempt to locate this place of origin/end is thought itself. All thought.

Can you predict your next thought?
Can you push away any thought?
Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?
Can anything choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?
Can anything pick and choose any kind of thought?

I grouped these questions together for they are all rooted in the belief that I am a something to push, select, or stop thoughts. To think so IS thought. One cannot 'do' anything, there is no doer. Where is the middle of a piece of string?
Nothing can choose to not have painful or negative thoughts. They simply appear, no-one can control this. What-is.
Nothing can pick n choose any kind of thought. The notion of a thinker, choosing what is labelled positive thought, is thought. A seeming rabbit hole.

So is there actual experience of a body, a cup and a holding of a cup, or is there just the experience of colour + sensation + thought?

There is no AE of a body, a cup and holding a cup...colour (image), sensation and thought IS the experience. Experienced by no-one but Experience itself. Life.

Hmmm…."that I who thinks he gets it is thought in itself". Could you elaborate more on this please so I am understanding what you mean?

Simply, the idea I am a thinker is thought. The notion I get it, is built upon the premise I am a something to get something...all thought. A whole lotta thinking.

Thank you Kay.
Much love and a big hug,
Brenden

[forgetmenot]

Hi Brenden,

Full steam ahead I see! Such a pleasure reading your post. I have no questions, it all sounds clear to me :)

You sound very clear about thoughts in total, and you sound very clear with the distinction between the AE of thought and the content of thought. If you have any questions about thought, please let me know.

So we move on to the idea of control.

I have another exercise for you.

1. First, choose one of your arms - it doesn't matter which.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then when you want to, raise that arm into the air.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

What is it exactly that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?
Can anything be found that makes the arm move?
How is the decision made?

Much love
Kay

[brenden]

Thanks Kay. Off to work now but I did the exercise last night...

What is it exactly that is choosing which arm to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

Not going to thought...no chooser. No separate individual...doer...chooser. The raw experience is arm raising...left or right is labels of thought...and the though come "left rig left right, umm I choose right, no left"...just mentation.

What is it that is controlling the arm?
Can a controlling ‘thing’ be located?
Can anything be found that makes the arm move?
How is the decision made?

Once again these questions are grouped together. There is no controller for that idea is only thought. No thing can be located, that is thought in itself. No search for the 'arm mover'..that is only thought...content being the controlling entity.
Decisions are not made! Yes. The seeming decision is just thoughts labelling experience. There is no-one to make the decision or control it. IT just IS.

Some clarity seen now.

Much love,
Brenden

[forgetmenot]

Hey Brenden,

How's the arm after all that lifting! haha

Not going to thought...no chooser. No separate individual...doer...chooser.

Yes :)

The raw experience is arm raising.

Look carefully here, without relying on thought or images, is there really an arm that is raising?
What is the actual experience of “arm raising”?

I choose right, no left"...just mentation.

Just notice how the “I” thought comes in and owns everything. And is there an “I” or is that just another label/thought that is just appearing in that moment as AE of thought?

No search for the 'arm mover'..that is only thought...content being the controlling entity.

Did you actually look to see that there was no ‘arm mover’ or just intellectually see it?
Can content of thought – which is made up of the AE of thoughts - control anything?

The thought “it is raining today” is AE of thought.

The story/content that the “sky is overcast”, “there is thunder in the distance”, “rain is wet”, “rain falls from the clouds”, “rain is great for the plants”, “rain is dreary” is just story, but they are thoughts and as thoughts they are AE of thought.

Decisions are not made! Yes. The seeming decision is just thoughts labelling experience. There is no-one to make the decision or control it. IT just IS.

Nice looking! :)

Can you elaborate on what the experience is that thought is labelling?

Love Kay

[brenden]

Understood all rhat was questioned...very clearly. The i-thought is crystal clear.

Look carefully here, without relying on thought or images, is there really an arm that is raising? 

Knew as soon as i sent these words...youd eat me up lol. Sane as AE of a body...arm...very same principle...only image(colour), sensations and thought.

Did you actually look to see that there was no ‘arm mover’ or just intellectually see it?
Can content of thought – which is made up of the AE of thoughts - control anything?

No thoughts can 'do' anything of themselves. All thought...seen.

Can you elaborate on what the experience is that thought is labelling?

Thought constantly labels the raw experience. The experience AS the seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting. What-is.
At work now...thank you. Jump back on later.

Hugs
Brenden

[forgetmenot]

Hi Brenden,

Knew as soon as i sent these words...youd eat me up lol

Haha! Yep, I will constantly check to make sure your answers are clear. That's my job! ;)

Do you have any questions at this point in time that you would like to ask about what we have already covered or about anything?

Love Kay

[brenden]

Hello Kay.
Absolutely no questions. I SAW what you pointed at with respect to raw experience through looking, and realised what my intellectual understanding really cannot SEE. Please allow the conversational lingo here, what you broke down thus far is crystal clear.

Thank you.
I am very very grateful.
Champion xxoo
Love Brenden

[forgetmenot]

Hi Brenden,

I know you are at work, so I don't expect you to respond to my posts until you get home and have the time to do so.

So, you have no questions and everything so far is crystal clear. So can you tell me what you have realised to date.


Let's take a look at the body.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Love Kay

[brenden]

Hi Kay,
Here we go...

Paying attention only to the pure sensations, WITHOUT RELYING ON THOUGHTS OR MENTAL IMAGES:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?

No. Eyes closed, no thought or image, no measurement, be it height, weight, or volume can be noted.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No. There is no AE of a body. Shape, form, all boundaries, all thoughts and images.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

No. The notion of inside outside is simply that, a notion, thought and image. Looking here there is no distinct demarcation without going to thought and preconceived ideas? Sitting on a chair, the senses could not define any boundary of division.

Thanks Kay,
There was much reflecting on the exercises thus far, a few questions did pop up, but I'm trusting this direct looking process rather than going to story and entertaining old patterns of thought. Feeling very enthused.

Much love
Brenden

[brenden]

Sorry, forgot to add...

So can you tell me what you have realised to date?

Most notably the looking at the raw experience happening in the moment, the noticing of perpetual thoughts and labels, the defining or judging the experience, the conceptual overlay and the injection of this sense of personal self experiencing the experience.
There is NO separation. What an intellectual understanding provided was a conceptual knowledge of Oneness etc, mixed with spiritual story and belief. Directly looking at what-is, was a deeper realisation into the no self, and also the object/subject split. Only thought breaks up the whole experience into fragments, further broken up by a seeming self experiencing them. I hear, I think, I breathe, I speak, I I I...ALL thought. There is only thoughtsoundsensationtatesmellsound.
No thinker thinking, only thought.
No doer, chooser, selector of thought, decisions...only thought.

I think that's about it...lol
I think :P

Love Brenden

[forgetmenot]

Hi Brenden!

You are doing really great in the looking department. I have no further questions for you re the body. There is another deeper exercise on the body if there is any lingering sense that you reside in a body! :)

From your reply about what you have realised to date, you have seen through the illusion of the separate individual and there isn't much left to do. There is this exercise on time and after that if there is any questions you have then I suggest you ask them so we can have a look before we wrap it up! :)

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But what is the experience of the now moving along the line of time?
How fast the present moment is actually moving?

How long does the now last?
Where does it start and where does it end?
When does the now exactly become the past?
What is the past in the actual experience?

How is it known that the now is moving? Or that it lasts?
How is it known exactly that there is such thing as 'now'?
What is the actual experience of 'now' or 'the present moment'?

Much love
Kay

[brenden]

Thanks Kay,
All good with the 'body' exercises, the looking has proved invaluable, the raw experience seen as opposed to being simply a talking point in what is also labelled spiritual circles. Thank you for having shown me this.

But what is the experience of the now moving along the line of time?

The 'now' doesn't move. It just always is. The idea or notion of time is a construct, the AE of thought. What is directly experienced is still. To think it moves, along a line of time...is thought in itself. It is always NOW.

How fast the present moment is actually moving?

Degree of speed is the AE of thought...it is motionless...does not move at all.

How long does the now last?

The notion of duration is thought. How long or short is AE of thought, Now doesn't last...it simply IS.

Where does it start and where does it end?

No start No end...only IS.

When does the now exactly become the past?

Now is Now. It doesn't 'become' anything.

What is the past in the actual experience?

The actual experience of thought.

[How is it known that the now is moving? Or that it lasts?/quote]
Motion is the AE of thought. Duration is the AE of thought. Not going to thought, the direct experiential knowing is simply this thoughtsoundsensationtastesmell...without going to thought the idea of moving and lasting is just that, an idea.

How is it known exactly that there is such thing as 'now'?
What is the actual experience of 'now' or 'the present moment'?

The word label Now is th AE of thought.The direct actual experiential knowing of what-is in the moment is just thoughtsoundsensationtastesmell. What-is requires no thought. What-is IS.

Off to work again,

Thank you Kay and Have an awesome day.
Much love
Brenden

[brenden]

Oops re the last quote function lol.

Thanks again Kay, I very much appreciate your efforts.

Hugs, Brenden.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Brenden,

I am loving the crystal clear clarity. Yes, unfortunately, spiritual concepts only keeps the seeker seeking, and when the simplicity of seeing WHAT IS is seen, there is a Homer Simpson slapping of the forehead LOL!

Seeing through one's own stories becomes simple when it's realised that all there is, is the raw experience of experience and the rest is just a fairytale without the 'happily ever after'!

Just a few more before the final confirmation questions.

Has it been clearly seen that there has never been a separate individual that could control or own life or anything?
Is there any chooser or decider of any kind?
Is there a separate individual/entity of any kind whatsoever that could be responsible for anything at all?
Is there a separate entity that started this investigation?
Has there ever been a separate self doing anything?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

Much love
Kay