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[0kay]

Well, let us look for. Where is it, except in thoughts? Is body an i?
Or is body sensing regardless if there is an image of an i or not?
Is i a being, a label, a concept? Is there an i?

[rabbit]

Or is body sensing regardless if there is an image of an i or not?

I don't experience the body sensing. If the body is sensing, then I must be the body, or I must be something separate that notices the senses. Senses just happen. Attention happens, not separate from the sensing.

Is i a being, a label, a concept? Is there an i?

I don't know what it is.

Still frustrating. Looking, looking. Whenever not looking, just get sucked into me again. Looking too much, the answers just come automatically.

[0kay]

Yes, there is no i experiencing the senses. And body is just a label for something living.
And yes, attention happens, senses happen and there is no separation.

Whenever not looking, just get sucked into me again.

Interesting. There is direct experience, looking, and whoops direct experience is gone and there is the feeling of a "me" again. How does this happen, this change? Look.

[rabbit]

There is direct experience, looking, and whoops direct experience is gone and there is the feeling of a "me" again. How does this happen, this change? Look.

Hard to say how it happens. When identification happens, I don't notice until later, retrospectively.

Thoughts that can commonly seduce the "I" are 1) Thoughts that come with a strong emotional charge; 2) Thoughts that revolve around 'should' (I should do this. Should I do that?); 3) Autobiographical narrative, recounting history, and plans for the future. All three themes often come together around I as seeker, and what I should be doing as a successful seeker.

There are often seductive thoughts along the lines of, "I should be making more effort in this work." And when I start focusing, the "I" feeling constellates around the act of looking. While some thoughts just pass by, the feeling of I is still centered on the effort it takes to keep attention on direct experience . . . . . "I" is associated with an effort feeling. But it is also comes when attention wanes.

[0kay]

Yes, this is a good description for what happens when the image of an i sneaks in.
When the belief is fading away these i-sticky thoughts keep on running for a while, but it is possible to look for it. Making it more obvious.

When there is denying to what happens now (may be i-sticky thoughts), how does it feel, why?
What happens now... is there an i to change it in this moment?

[rabbit]

When there is denying to what happens now (may be i-sticky thoughts), how does it feel, why?
What happens now... is there an i to change it in this moment?

Everything is what happens now. Whether caught up in i-sticky thoughts or not, it is now. It seems to be a matter of where attention goes.

Wheny trying to focus attention on direct experience, there is constant undertow of thoughts and physical sensations that distract ('OK, enough, let's move, this is boring, need to do something else.' Often more physical urges than thoughts.) When caught up in the i-sticky, there is not this sense of fragmentation (I mean, the concurrent feelings of direct experience, the attempts to watch direct experience, and these distracting thoughts). It is more enveloping.

It's obvious that 'i' can not control all these thoughts. Although it still occasionally insists that it can anyway. Indeed, the very attempt to watch direct experience, to watch when the I-sticky thoughts catch me feels like an attempt to control attention.

More often, the "I" feels like a passive experiencer rather than a controller. Much of the identity is not centered around doing, but around how to create a narrative out of these experiences and and present it in a good light.

[0kay]

The identity... Is it a separate self, i, me, controller, watcher, doer?
Is there anything of the above as a separate being?

[rabbit]

The identity... Is it a separate self, i, me, controller, watcher, doer? Is there anything of the above as a separate being?

Well, the identity feels like a product most often. Which does not give it any independent identity. It is just a reaction, indistinguishable from what happens.

It also feels like the watcher sometimes. Which is more tricky. It is the one that watches the direct experience, that watches the thought, and that then steps behind and tries to see who is watching. Yes, this watching is ultimately seamlessly present, always. But when it is engaged in looking, in focusing attention, it feels more limited & constricted, easier to think of as me. . .. . . . (Perhaps these are just my thoughts about the watcher? When I try to see what it is, it transforms into a thought object.)

Rabbit


PS: I have some stuff coming up the next couple of days, and might not be able to write again until Saturday evening.

[0kay]

Good. It is possible to look for feelings like looking for thoughts. All these positive and negative judged feelings... look for them, often.

Is there a source inside you, a doer who handles with it?
Is there really a need to do more with it than watching?

[rabbit]

Hi Okay,
I woke up sick this morning, and can't follow through on my original plans for today. Another reminder of lack of control!

It is possible to look for feelings like looking for thoughts. All these positive and negative judged feelings... look for them, often.

It's always been a easier to watch feelings. Perhaps because they are so physical. But still get ambushed by some of the more subtle and habitual feelings that get entwined with thoughts, like frustration and various little arrogances.

Is there a source inside you, a doer who handles with it? Is there really a need to do more with it than watching?

No.
Sometimes I fuss too much with the watching. Making it complicated. To feel like I'm doing something about it, being insightful, careful. Avoiding boredom.

Rabbit

[0kay]

Well done.
There are many thoughts and feelings. Spiderman and Cherry-Coce, man on the moon, The i, the watcher... some of them are real and others are pictures, feelings and beliefs in possibilities.
Look if the thoughts, feelings and assumptions are real. Are they in direct experience, what senses bring?
Do they come later, are they more like combination of thoughts?

[rabbit]

Colors, pressure, texture, smells, tastes, sounds. Direct experience brings only this.
Thoughts happen, too, and appear before direct experience. But the concepts and things that thoughts construct and refer to are not direct experience.

Feelings may have direct physical sensations. Labels and interpretations like angry, sad and frustrated come later. The feeling-sensations don't necessarily have to be linked to a particular emotional label. But I find that the more often I link them, the more likely the label and sensation will arise togther. A habit.

[0kay]

Yes, things go on as trained. It is possible to look for again.
Thoughts with labels and links about an i. Where it is, is there an i?

[rabbit]

Thoughts with labels and links about an i. Where it is, is there an i?

No

Not sure what else to say. Looking, nothing, looking, nothing, looking, nothing. Being sick is kind of helpful because I don't have much energy for anything else and my mind is not overactive. But still only looking, nothing, looking, nothing . . .

[0kay]

This was much and well done during the last days. If there is a need to slow down it is ok with me.
Hope it is getting better with health soon.

Some more questions to looking for:
Is there a need for looking or searching?
Is there a need for judging when there is looking without belonging?