Returning for another shot

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

Am I pushing too much? Trying too much? I get the sense that it might all be a lot simpler than I'm making it.

A guess would be this. You don’t stick to the inquiry, you take breaks, then you try to figure it out rather than address the specific questions asked. That’s just how it seems here. Not meaning to be harsh, but it's like you're trying to figure it out.... but it's really avoidance... I could be wrong...

So you say the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths,locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

Aragon

[marknathan]

Hi Mark,

Am I pushing too much? Trying too much? I get the sense that it might all be a lot simpler than I'm making it.

A guess would be this. You don’t stick to the inquiry, you take breaks, then you try to figure it out rather than address the specific questions asked. That’s just how it seems here. Not meaning to be harsh, but it's like you're trying to figure it out.... but it's really avoidance... I could be wrong...

Fair enough for the rebuke on the break - that was along one over Christmas. And there are days when I don't get back straight away. I think some of this is definitely avoidance. Some of the latter is also me trying to give time to the questions so I'm not just giving a quick off-the-cuff answer. I feel like I'm going round in circles, which makes me frustrated. But I'll stick with it.

I think I've tried to address all your questions though - that doesn't seem very fair. I hold my hand up to trying to figure it out intellectually; I'm getting similar feedback on the course I'm doing at the moment. I'll do my best to try not to.

So you say the foot is ‘down there’. So presumably you are above your foot. Where are you? Sit quietly, close your eyes, take a few breaths,locate where you feel yourself to be. Locate yourself vertically in the body, horizontally to the left or right, and depth, how far in. Feel how big you are, where you reside. Then point with a finger to ‘you’. Open your eyes, where is your finger pointing?

I confess to being a little put out by your reply :-), but that was useful. There was a lot of emotion in the belly. I think I would typically identify myself as being there. The chest area too, and being behind the eyes, as we've discussed before. Moving to the left or right, it seemed ridiculous to discount the arms - there is just as much physical felt sensation in them as in the torso. But perhaps it's the emotional component of the feeling in the belly and chest that leads to greater identification with that area. Looking more closely, I don't know where I'd point to. Initially, it was my chest. But then "I'm" looking "down" at my finger. So am I in my head? There's nothing I can really point to,when looked at more closely.

The same would apply moving down the body. They're "my" legs, but they're not "me." It's ridiculous really, when you say it out loud.

What would you recommend as an antidote to trying to "figure it out"? I've taken to just dropping in the question, "where am I?", "who is doing this?" or "who am I?" and then just staying with the breath and the not-knowing. But perhaps that's too vague.

I'll continue with the last exercise you gave me and report back.

Thanks for your help, Aragon.

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

Thanks for taking that so well. It was meant to help. Sorry if it was unfair in places. Let’s move on.

I confess to being a little put out by your reply :-), but that was useful. There was a lot of emotion in the belly. I think I would typically identify myself as being there. The chest area too, and being behind the eyes, as we've discussed before.

Okay, good. So you see, when there is a strong emotional response, ‘you’ are located in the belly.

But then, you look down at your finger, and presumably you are related in the head, behind the eyes (looking down). Try and notice what is being taken as ‘you’. See how it changes moment by moment.

In the belly there is a strong emotional response. Is that emotion? Or sensation labelled as emotion?

When you are looking down, notice, are there sensations in the eyes, or behind the eyes, that are being taken as you?

When you are listening, are there sensations around the ears that are taken as you?

How about when you are thinking?

Imagine you are going to hit your finger with a hammer... where are 'you' now?

Then, go back to the belly. Get in touch with an emotion/sensation… What is it that goes from the sensation to the emotion e.g. “irritated”? How does that happen? Observe the process, this is KEY.

What would you recommend as an antidote to trying to "figure it out"?

Just follow the inquiry, step, by step – use the quote function for each question (in bold) and answer beneath it.

Hope that helps,

Aragon

[marknathan]

But then, you look down at your finger, and presumably you are related in the head, behind the eyes (looking down). Try and notice what is being taken as ‘you’. See how it changes moment by moment.

In the belly there is a strong emotional response. Is that emotion? Or sensation labelled as emotion?

Yes, this occurred to me as I was writing the response last night. It's not emotion. It's sensation caused by emotion.

When you are looking down, notice, are there sensations in the eyes, or behind the eyes, that are being taken as you?

Can “being” be taken as a sensation? A sensation of “aliveness”? The only other sensation is the sense of sight, seeing itself happening. There's a presumption that “I'm” looking, that “I'm” doing the seeing. That seems to be a thought connecting the sensation of being with the act of seeing.

When you are listening, are there sensations around the ears that are taken as you?

This is similar to the above. What's also common to both is a sense of being at the “centre” of the experience, whether that's seeing or listening. Looking at that sense of being at the centre, it seems to be a thought, a mental image of myself, my body. Quite separate from the actual experience. As I type this now I can feel a shift.

How about when you are thinking?

This is a little odd. Initially, the sensation is one of their being “in” my head. But when I deliberately go down a train of thought, I realise that the experience is no different to listening, and perhaps seeing; a sound arises, neither inside nor outside, and a thought arises, neither inside nor outside. This might be a bit rambly, Aragon, so forgive; I'm trying not to to think about it too much, but to write down a sense of the experience as it comes to me, so it may be a little incoherent. If this is not a good approach, please do say.

Imagine you are going to hit your finger with a hammer... where are 'you' now?

In that situation, the finger is definitely an integral part of “me”. I'm afraid I'll feel pain.

Then, go back to the belly. Get in touch with an emotion/sensation… What is it that goes from the sensation to the emotion e.g. “irritated”? How does that happen? Observe the process, this is KEY.

I'd like to sit with this question a little longer, but looking at it now, here is what I can see: it's a thought, an idea. As I was sitting here thinking about your question, and feeling a little confused, straining a little, there was an accompanying sensation in the belly. But the sensation itself is similar – or identical to – one that would be felt if I was “nervous” or “anxious”. It's the thought, the ideas around the cause of the emotion, that identify it as a specific emotion.
Even grief, with its particular qualities, has a similar burning, tightening sensation in the belly. Though there's more to it.
I deliberately got in touch with anger, got that burning sensation in the stomach, and it's the story around it that makes it “anger”. “I hate it when...” “That guy is trying to do something to me...” Whatever it is. It's the thoughts.
I would like to look at this a bit longer.

[marknathan]

After I'd written that last night, something happened which made me anxious. It doesn't matter what it was, but I noticed the sensation in the belly, the tightening, and then the thoughts that arose - "Oh, that's going to be a problem", "so-and-so will be really pissed off", etc. Once I noticed the thoughts, the sensation continued but I could see it as separate to the story that was spun around it, and I wasn't carried away with the emotion. Sensation was just sensation, thoughts were just thoughts.

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

I thought I'd posted this morning, not sure what happened to it. I'll post tomorrow as it's late now. Apologies for that,

Aragon

[Aragon]

Hi Mark!

After I'd written that last night, something happened which made me anxious. It doesn't matter what it was, but I noticed the sensation in the belly, the tightening, and then the thoughts that arose - "Oh, that's going to be a problem", "so-and-so will be really pissed off", etc. Once I noticed the thoughts, the sensation continued but I could see it as separate to the story that was spun around it, and I wasn't carried away with the emotion. Sensation was just sensation, thoughts were just thoughts.

- Great Mark, sensations are just sensation. Thoughts are just thoughts. How does sensation become emotion (or what is emotion?)?

Yes, this occurred to me as I was writing the response last night. It's not emotion. It's sensation caused by emotion.

-Is sensation caused by emotion, or is that a thought about sensation?

Can “being” be taken as a sensation? A sensation of “aliveness”? The only other sensation is the sense of sight, seeing itself happening. There's a presumption that “I'm” looking, that “I'm” doing the seeing. That seems to be a thought connecting the sensation of being with the act of seeing.

- Okay, but this aliveness. Where does it reside? How big is it? Is this aliveness a (subtle) sensation? Or something else?

This is similar to the above. What's also common to both is a sense of being at the “centre” of the experience, whether that's seeing or listening. Looking at that sense of being at the centre, it seems to be a thought, a mental image of myself, my body. Quite separate from the actual experience. As I type this now I can feel a shift.

- Good, but something is felt, no? Something is taken as me? When you are anxious, the belly? then thought says something about that, and where are you located then? Try thinking really hard. Notice the sensations in the head. Does that feel like you? Try looking really hard. Listening really hard. What happens?

This is a little odd. Initially, the sensation is one of their being “in” my head. But when I deliberately go down a train of thought, I realise that the experience is no different to listening, and perhaps seeing; a sound arises, neither inside nor outside, and a thought arises, neither inside nor outside.

- Is there a gap between you and the thought, or is there just the thought? Sit quietly and listen to a sound – is there a listener and a sound - and space between them, or just the sound/just the listening?

In that situation, the finger is definitely an integral part of “me”. I'm afraid I'll feel pain.

- Before that (thoughts about the consequences), are you not located in the finger?


Let’s see where this takes us for now,

Be well,

Aragon

[marknathan]

After I'd written that last night, something happened which made me anxious. It doesn't matter what it was, but I noticed the sensation in the belly, the tightening, and then the thoughts that arose - "Oh, that's going to be a problem", "so-and-so will be really pissed off", etc. Once I noticed the thoughts, the sensation continued but I could see it as separate to the story that was spun around it, and I wasn't carried away with the emotion. Sensation was just sensation, thoughts were just thoughts.

- Great Mark, sensations are just sensation. Thoughts are just thoughts. How does sensation become emotion (or what is emotion?)?

Yes, this occurred to me as I was writing the response last night. It's not emotion. It's sensation caused by emotion.

-Is sensation caused by emotion, or is that a thought about sensation?

I've been really trying to watch this like a hawk. I think thought causes sensation, which can in turn cause other thoughts to arise, creating a story that we buy into. So, anger, for example. Someone stands in front of me in a queue. Quick as a flash, the thought arises, “He just stood in front of me”; that thought's content is bought into / identified with and sensation arises in the body, in the belly. “Anger” is the name given to this combination of story and sensation – a story of me vs someone else / the world, etc. This description might sound like intellectual analysis, but I've watched it in action. The source is always a separate me that feels loss (grief, sadness), polarised (anger / repulsion). In Buddhist terms, craving and aversion.

Can “being” be taken as a sensation? A sensation of “aliveness”? The only other sensation is the sense of sight, seeing itself happening. There's a presumption that “I'm” looking, that “I'm” doing the seeing. That seems to be a thought connecting the sensation of being with the act of seeing.

- Okay, but this aliveness. Where does it reside? How big is it? Is this aliveness a (subtle) sensation? Or something else?

On further observation, I'm not sure that it's a sensation actually. It's more awareness of sensations. So, sitting here, I'm aware of sights, sounds, felt sensations. Tensions, a “held-ness” in the body. I think it's the awareness that I meant when I referred before to the “sensation of aliveness”. Where is it? I can't find a place. I can scan the body, and be aware of sensations in each part, but it's everywhere.

This is similar to the above. What's also common to both is a sense of being at the “centre” of the experience, whether that's seeing or listening. Looking at that sense of being at the centre, it seems to be a thought, a mental image of myself, my body. Quite separate from the actual experience. As I type this now I can feel a shift.

- Good, but something is felt, no? Something is taken as me? When you are anxious, the belly? then thought says something about that, and where are you located then? Try thinking really hard. Notice the sensations in the head. Does that feel like you? Try looking really hard. Listening really hard. What happens?

This is related to the last point, I suppose. Yes, something is felt. When there is sensation in the gut in response to a thought about a situation, there is a tightening, a contraction, that would typically feel like “me”. What has habitually been taken to be me. By what? Thought? Yes, thought.
Try thinking really hard: awareness focuses on the head, the brow might contract, tension in the eyes, and perhaps more awareness of sensations in the head that are always there. These familiar sensaations are “me thinking”.
Same with listening and looking hard – it's an unnecessary effort, a straining, that can also cause a contraction in the belly.

This is a little odd. Initially, the sensation is one of their being “in” my head. But when I deliberately go down a train of thought, I realise that the experience is no different to listening, and perhaps seeing; a sound arises, neither inside nor outside, and a thought arises, neither inside nor outside.

- Is there a gap between you and the thought, or is there just the thought? Sit quietly and listen to a sound – is there a listener and a sound - and space between them, or just the sound/just the listening?

There's just the thought. The pattern of thoughts is familiar and feels like “me”. A stream of thoughts that refer to each other and say “this is me thinking”. They just arise. But there's awareness of them. So, I'm not them. So, what the xxxx am I?
Sound: just sound. But again, awareness of sound. “I'm” aware. LU says no, there is just awareness. Can there really be just awareness? Is is that feeling of being aware that is taken for being “me”? Yes, awareness just happens – listening, seeing, just happen – I don't do anything. But who/what is seeing? Who/what is listening?

In that situation, the finger is definitely an integral part of “me”. I'm afraid I'll feel pain.

- Before that (thoughts about the consequences), are you not located in the finger?

You could say that. The finger is more strongly identified with me, part of the whole of me. Yes, it feels like it's me. Just like when I think hard, I feel like I'm in my head.

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

I think thought causes sensation,

Go back to your foot, where it touches the floor. Does thought really cause sensations, or do sensations just arise?

Look closely.

Let’s leave ‘cause’ for the moment and just see what is actually there. We are looking at what is real, not imagined.

So something happens and ‘you get angry’. You say:

“Anger” is the name given to this combination of story and sensation

Next time something like that happens, notice:
- sensations
- thought label (e.g. angry)
- thought story (e.g. he stepped in front of me)
- mental image (e.g. image of the man).

See if you can see this. Look closely. Give an example of this.

Go back to the foot touching the floor. Are all these elements present? Write about it. Be specific.

Then....

Can you find anything else other than these elements present?

It's more awareness of sensations.

You talk about awareness but you can’t find it. Thought describes awareness and an object of awareness (e.g. awareness and sound). But look closely, are there two things? Is there a gap between awareness and the object, or is there just the object?

Listen to a sound. The sound is there no? Why posit something else? Can you find it, or is it just an idea?

LU says no, there is just awareness

Does LU say that? Does LU say anything? LU just points you to look. You need to drop that as your end-goal….. when you image the outcome you set yourself up to fail

The pattern of thoughts is familiar and feels like “me”.

Yes, it is labelled by another thought as you.

stream of thoughts that refer to each other and say “this is me thinking”

- or another thought ‘says’ this is me thinking?

They just arise. But there's awareness of them. So, I'm not them. So, what the xxxx am I?

- forget this ‘what am I’ for now, it's not useful here, just look what is there/present/real

Speak soon,

Aragon

[marknathan]

I think thought causes sensation,

Go back to your foot, where it touches the floor. Does thought really cause sensations, or do sensations just arise? 

Look closely.

When I said that thought causes sensation, I was referring to those sensations felt as part of “emotion.” If I imagine a difficult conversation that becomes heated as I imagine it, then a sensation arises in the belly. But in the case of the felt sensations of the body – foot, etc – sensation comes first.

“Anger” is the name given to this combination of story and sensation


Next time something like that happens, notice:
- sensations 
- thought label (e.g. angry)
- thought story (e.g. he stepped in front of me)
- mental image (e.g. image of the man).

See if you can see this. Look closely. Give an example of this.

Go back to the foot touching the floor. Are all these elements present? Write about it. Be specific.

Then....

Can you find anything else other than these elements present?

I've been noticing this with lots of different situations. I was sitting earlier, for example. I could smell the cooking from the kitchen. Thought label: garlic. Story: my housemate's cooking; I'm starving; what will I have for dinner. Mental image: my house mate cooking. Everything bar the original sensation of smell - and pang in the belly – is just though content; nothing to do with what is actually happening.

So, back to the foot. When you gave me this exercise to do back in December, I found it quite confusing. Not so much now. Though I don't know if that means anything. Sensation of foot touching the floor. There is nothing in the sensation itself that says “foot” or what it's doing. It's just raw sensation. Label: foot; my foot; my feet. Story: these are my feet; my socks are comfortable; they're warm; the feel a little cold; this is a familiar feeling from sitting in meditation in this posture, etc, etc. Mental image: my feet, as part of my body. Actually seeing the feet, or rather, imagining the feet visually. Again, everything but the raw felt sensation is just thought content.

I cannot find anything else at all other than these elements.

It's more awareness of sensations.

You talk about awareness but you can’t find it. Thought describes awareness and an object of awareness (e.g. awareness and sound). But look closely, are there two things? Is there a gap between awareness and the object, or is there just the object? 

Listen to a sound. The sound is there no? Why posit something else? Can you find it, or is it just an idea?

I had never thought of “awareness” as being an idea. But of course it is! It might be a logical conclusion, but it's just an idea. It's not experienced. There's just sound. Really staying with the sound, it seems to fill “my” experience. There is nothing behind or under it. Just sound. The same with felt sensation when I really stayed with it. And sitting this earlier this afternoon with that reflection, and getting into some sort of acess/pre-access, whatever the hell you wan to call it, and that distortion of the sense of body arose, where the arms feel huge and you don't know where they are. It's just sensation – thoughts identify them as “arms”, “legs”, etc.
It felt a little overwhelming, the sense of no gap, but I can't quite contact it now to the same extent.

LU says no, there is just awareness

Does LU say that? Does LU say anything? LU just points you to look. You need to drop that as your end-goal….. when you image the outcome you set yourself up to fail

Fair cop. I'll try to forget everything I think I know.

stream of thoughts that refer to each other and say “this is me thinking”

- or another thought ‘says’ this is me thinking?

Isn't that what I said...? :-)


I sat a lot with this today, both while going about my day and more formally while meditating. During the sits in particular, it felt like something was shifting; a sensation I hadn't felt before, or a different perspective. And then of course there would be a label, story, image, etc. But I feel a little more relaxed about it. It feels like it might be sinking in a little deeper. The Heart Sutra keeps coming to mind.

Thanks for your patience, Aragon; I know I can be infuriating. I'd find me infuriating :-)

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

That seems like progress to me :-) ... Good looking.

So, what is 'foot'?

Then, (you kind of did this with the cooking, but just for clarity):

Sit quietly, listen to a sound outside. If you hear a car, how is it known there is a car? What is actually present in experience?

Then,

Thought 'says' something like "I (subject) hear (verb) a car (object)".... but, in actual experience,

What is found? Are there three things? Two things? One thing? What is the "I"?

Aragon

[marknathan]

So, what is 'foot'?

'Foot' is an idea, a label. Given to describe something which is real in as much as it can be seen and touched. But the label just points to it and the thing itself... In experience it's far more mysterious than 'foot'. It's just a word, a thought. A veil which covers the thing itself, dulls the experience of the thing itself.

Then, (you kind of did this with the cooking, but just for clarity):

Sit quietly, listen to a sound outside. If you hear a car, how is it known there is a car? What is actually present in experience?

The wind outside; there is just the sound, and automatically a labelling of it as 'wind'. Then another thought that says how distant it sounds, a mental image of the street outside. All thought content. All that is present is the sound itself, rising and falling. The sound is labelled, identified, from long-since-learned experience. Imagining branches swaying, leaves tumbling down the road; the cold – all story.

Then,

Thought 'says' something like "I (subject) hear (verb) a car (object)".... but, in actual experience,

What is found? Are there three things? Two things? One thing? What is the "I"?

Just the sound of the wind, and lots and lots of other sensations. Hearing is happening. But there's no I. This is where there's a danger of me giving the answer I think I'm supposed to give... I can't tell the difference any more – I can't see an I. Just things happening, arising. But I'm not sure I believe it yet, if you know what I mean.
What is the 'I'? A label for something which doesn't actually exist. A thought which arises claiming ownership of this and that. It doesn't actually exist because... there's just experience, sensations, thoughts, all coming and going as they will – no one to decide what happens next. It just happens. Dammit, sometimes I feel like I'm so close to really seeing it, and then it slips away. Then I focus again, and can kind of see it. But there's no massive change. Earlier, I felt a kind of relief, a simplicity. Now I don't know. I'll submit this now, take your questions to bed, and check in again tomorrow.

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

'Foot' is an idea, a label. Given to describe something which is real in as much as it can be seen and touched.

How do you mean? What is the label describing?

Dammit, sometimes I feel like I'm so close to really seeing it, and then it slips away. Then I focus again, and can kind of see it. But there's no massive change.

See how thought describes what is supposed to happen? What is supposed to happen? Or is that just an idea? Who said anything about a massive change?

This is just the start of the path, not the end.....

Tell me, where do thoughts come from? Can you choose your thoughts? Can you stop your thoughts?

Aragon

[marknathan]

'Foot' is an idea, a label. Given to describe something which is real in as much as it can be seen and touched.

How do you mean? What is the label describing?

'Foot' points to these beautifully-shaped ends of our legs. Our actual experience of sensation there arises, and the thought 'foot' jumps in automatically. So while the label points to something which physically exists, it also comes loaded with mental image and story – assumptions which tend to preclude really experiencing the thing itself. Really seeing it, feeling it. These assumptions say this is MY foot, but there's nothing in actual experience to back that up. Who does it belong to? It's part of this body. Who does the body belong to? It just is.

Dammit, sometimes I feel like I'm so close to really seeing it, and then it slips away. Then I focus again, and can kind of see it. But there's no massive change.

See how thought describes what is supposed to happen? What is supposed to happen? Or is that just an idea? Who said anything about a massive change?

Yes, it is just an idea. It's very hard not to have other people's experiences in mind though; friends who have gone through the gate. Mostly it seems like a very definite experience; you know when you're through. I can see that that is an obstacle though, and I'll try to let it go.

Tell me, where do thoughts come from? Can you choose your thoughts? Can you stop your thoughts?

I have absolutely no idea where they come from. In experience, they seem to come out of nowhere. But usually with a general pattern; a pattern that is conditioned; one thought arises in dependence on another. Thoughts, words, actions, habits – forming what we call a personality. A unique pattern. Can I choose them? No. Sometimes I think I can – I say, ok, I'll think about a pink elephant. But where did the thought to choose that thought come from? It just arose. Neither can you stop thoughts. Their flow can be slowed when the attention is absorbed in something, as in meditation, but stopped? Not in my experience.

So, where am I getting stuck? I'm not sure. The feeling of being. Just a feeling, a sensation, I know. Perhaps I just need to keep looking, reflecting, but without pushing to achieve something. It might just be my expectations. There's been progress though, I think. And when that thought comes up, another says “what if I lose it?”. There's fear that I won't see it. A straining, holding.

[Aragon]

Hi Mark,

Don’t worry, we’re not there yet….

Foot' points to these beautifully-shaped ends of our legs. Our actual experience of sensation there arises, and the thought 'foot' jumps in automatically. So while the label points to something which physically exists,

You describe this well, and this is probably beyond the scope of this inquiry, and I may be slow in understanding…. but if sensation + thought-label 'foot', is how foot arises, how are you defining physical? Or, if all you can find is sensation + thought-label +thought-story + mental-image (or sight-image), where is physical? Where is foot – outside of thought?

one thought arises in dependence on another

this can be a useful way of modelling – in dependence on the wind, the feather is blown across the path – but is it seen this too is modelling. What says this, other than thought?

Their flow can be slowed when the attention is absorbed in something, as in meditation

Can be slowed? Or slows? Is there an author of the slowing? Is there an agency that controls the slowing?


Look closely. Are thoughts aware? Can one thought know another? Can thoughts do anything at all? When we say ‘thought says’, we imply an agency… is it really so?

Aragon