Looking for guidance

[Maranna]

Hello M,

Thank you for taking time from your retreat.

1, DO THOUGHTS SAY SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF "THINKING SHOULD DISAPPEAR"?
LET S FIND THIS SELF FOR WHICH IT WOULD BE SUICIDE IF THINKING DISAPPEARED?

That self does not exist


2, CAN THE "I, ME, SELF" THOUGHT DIE?
HOW LONG IS A THOUGHT?
WHERE DOES "SELF" THOUGHT GO WHEN IT S NOT PRESENT?
ANYTHING PERCEIVED THAT IS OUTSIDE PERCEPTION HERE?

Speaking from "my" perception at this time:
"I, me self" thoughts don t die, what dies is my identifying with them and this has been happening with "me"
"Self" thoughts are always present
How long is a thought? Thoughts arise and fall, come and go, some are more coherent or fully formed than others


3, SO AWARENESS IS ABLE TO DISENGAGE FROM THINKING. THIS AWARENESS MAY BE THOUGHT TO BE IN CHARGE OF
WHAT IS ENGAGED WITH. SO PERHAPS THIS IS "YOU", "THE OBSERVER OF EXPERIENCE?"
RELAX AND LOOK RIGHT AT THE OBSERVER OF EXPERIENCE

There is no observer of experience, there is only observing happening


4, SURE, THERE IS AWARENESS. IS "YOU" A FICTION HAPPENING IN AWARENESS, OR IS AWARENESS YOUR AWARENESS?
LOOK DIRECTLY INTO D E, DON T BELIEVE WHAT THOUGHTS SAY IS THERE. ACTUALLY FIND OUT FIRST HAND WHAT
IS THERE

No to "I" fiction, and it s not "my" awareness.


Happy New Year to you. Anna
"

[minddweller]

1) "That self does not exist"
Does any self exist? Did it ever?
2) right, for something to die it needs to exist in the first place. Are self thoughts really always present?!

3) great! No observer just observing, there is no doubt awareness

4) Fab! Is Anna anything more than an imagined character (however useful at times)?

[Maranna]

Thank you, M,

Regarding "self" thoughts: Oops..... Sat with this for a large part of the day and could observe especially when listening to music that there was just the hearing of the sounds, however briefly, without the "I" flavor. The same when going for a walk and watching a Woodpecker pecking away and looking at certain trees....

[minddweller]

Hello,
Tune into the "I" flavour now. How are you feeling?

Happy new year!

[Maranna]

Hello M,

When I read your response I smiled and then laughed. Waited 2 hours to see if something disturbing would come up, and no, right now I'm fine, seeing the world with humor.

Warm regards,

[minddweller]

Hello Anna,
Now back and on a computer so let's get real clear now.

When I read your response I smiled and then laughed. Waited 2 hours to see if something disturbing would come up, and no, right now I'm fine, seeing the world with humor.

That made a smile appear on this face too! I'm curious as to how things have been unfolding over the last five days that I've been away. I've been re-reading our conversation and I found this:

Having said the above because I find it to be true I am still "identified" up to a point with this phantom called Anna. Strange, when I think about it.

Is this still the case? What is identified with what? Relax and see what is directly seen to be the case now.

:-)

[Maranna]

Hello, Hello!
So nice to hear from you!

The "I Entity" thing is gone, dissolved, and it happened while I was busy with something else. Before that though, I was totally on fire with it. That was two days ago, and yesterday morning after I woke up I thought "On the Eve of Epiphany I had an Epiphany!" Now there is so much more space, no more questions as in how to see through this illusion.

Thank you so much!

[minddweller]

Great! Really enjoyed reading this!

Here are some last questions. If there is a sticky place, we will be able to get you completely 'unstuck'.
There is no rush, write what feels true. Please number (and quote) the answers with the corresponding numbers. You don't need to answer them all at once, I'll wait until you've got through them all.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Warm wishes and Welcome home :-),
M

[Maranna]

Thank you for welcoming me home! So simple when being seen, so difficult when in the firing line!

1. IS THERE A SEPARATE "SELF, ME OR I" AT ALL, ANYWHERE, IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM? WAS THER EVER?

No,no and no.


2, EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHAT THE ILLUSION OF SEPARATE SELF IS, WHEN IT STARTS AND HOW IT WORKS FROM YOUR
OWN EXPERIENCE

It starts very early in life through conditioning by family, culture, religion, school, workplace, social circle, etc
This is it's dogma: we must fit in or we are not loved
The separate self is an imaginary prison we build in ourselves, around ourselves, wherever, more or less
consensually, so we will not be rejected. Tears are coming to my eyes writing this.


3, HOW DOES IT FEEL TO SEE THIS? WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE FROM BEFORE YOU STARTED THIS DIALOGUE?
PLEASE REPORT FROM THE PAST FEW DAYS.

Huge relief
Am not a Seeker anymore
Where the "I Entity" was lodged there now is space and peace
Feel so much lighter now, probably because I hardly know anything anymore


4, WHAT WAS THE LAST BIT THAT PUSHED YOU OVER, MADE YOU LOOK?

Probably the most useful tool for me was the "Deep Looking" article by Ilona. Whenever anxiety had me in it's grip
that's what I would refer to and do a shortened version of it, probably four times in all, it worked like a miracle.
So big hug Ilona, and thank you!
The last few days I was totally on fire with the process, could not think of anything else at all, just like being in
love. On the last day of this work, it was getting dark outside and I had to go chop some wood and bring it inside
and when done with those chores my whole being felt different, there was no "I" to be found anywhere. No big
download of anything else, just a huge unburdening amidst joy


5, DESCRIBE DECISION, INTENTION, FREE WILL, CHOICE AND CONTROL. WHAT MAKES THINGS HAPPEN? HOW DOES IT
WORK? WHAT ARE YOU RESPONSIBLE FOR? PLEASE GIVE EXAMPLES FROM RECENT EXPERIENCE

In all honesty, I don't understand intent. Will address that separately
Decisions make themselves when I get out of the way
Free will is an illusion
When there is clarity, there is no choice to be made, I see the choice thing as a New Age invention, of course
previously it was for the privileged
Same for control, Control = big ego
I am responsible for nothing, I mean, there is nothing I can do to improve the universe. Having said that, in my
Day to day life I will continue to look after the garden, recycle, observe traffic rules and be "neighborly"
No idea how it works. In my own life I observe certain guidelines: When in doubt, don't. I generally leave things
Alone, from experience I know that too much meddling, controlling is a guarantee for disaster
Don't know if the above explains my view properly

Will continue this later as I must be somewhere shortly

Big Cyber Hug, Anna

[Maranna]

To finish this reply:

6, ANYTHING TO ADD?

Maybey just the obvious:
In 40 years of spending a fortune on the self help and spiritual books I find the only place that actually offers
a process that works is free! Difficult to get my head around!
My gratitude to all of you is immense!

Now the only question that remains is how to go further? How to dissolve a lifetime of accumulated beliefs?
Thank you! Thank you!


IS THERE A STICKY PLACE STILL SOMEWHERE?

The only sticky place that shows up right now is around INTENTION, there I have not clearly seen that it doesn't
serve us well.
What makes all of us here in this forum put ourselves in the line of fire if not through some kind of intention? Somehow the decision is reached that to go on like we have is harder to sustain than the alternative, the one that brings us here (intentionally). OK, I think I have just answered my own question, because knowing that we need to wake up is not a matter of choice, it is a matter of urgency, a choiceless matter, whereas intention is along the line of "I think I'll do that. What a great idea."


5, INTENTION

I see it now as a kind of busyness, a way for appearing "good" in the eyes of the world. Not a bad thing, but in the
waking up business it has no purpose, is the conclusion I have reached.


Dear Minddweller, thank you so much!

Anna

[minddweller]

Thanks Anna,

It's been a real pleasure reading this. Looking into wanting and not wanting (desire and aversion) is another possible further inquiry.

For our current purposes here though, here is a definition of 'intention' from a web dictionary

"an act or instance of determining mentally upon some action or result."

Now take this definition as the real meaning of intention. How does it work? Look directly into actual experience of 'mentally determining some action or result'.

If in doubt take a moment with a cup of tea out in the garden again before reading on.

In the garden yet? if so answer this:











What was the process getting here? Did YOU intend to? There will be a story about this but what actually happened? There may be a sense of agency to all this but is there an agent?

Much love,
M

[Maranna]

Just wondering....... Is this a trick question? Because, the place where the question(s) should be is blank.

Other than that, thanks for clarifying intention for me, and I made up my own scenario in order to do the exercise. My intention is to plant Pyracantha along the fence line in the garden in the spring. So d. E. is thought, there is only thought in setting intentions

Have not been in the garden yet, it's a cold and frosty morning on the West Coast of Canada,

Warm regards,

[minddweller]

Hehehehe
No, you haven't read the whole post, below the blank appears the question. I left a blank so that you wouldn't read the question before landing in the garden.

[Maranna]

Thank you for quick reply. My fault, I'm too literal.

This exercise was interesting. I had a cup of tea ready when I read your reply and by then it was a balmy 3 degrees
so sitting in the garden was nice

Initially there was resistance doing the exercise, all that wanted to happen was listening to a dog bark, watching the duck swim, etc, and the intention thing was about planning an imaginary event in the future. As the resistance wore off I could see that setting an intention can easily happen without a doer, the brain thinking what needs to be done and then the body doing. I would say that most of our daily life revolves around this principle. There is a certain amount of planning involved in just about everything, and it certainly does not need an agent. Smile!

[minddweller]

Does it ever actually have an agent?