Would be thankful for guidance.

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

Just checking in - I hope to reply to your post this evening. I was very tired yesterday evening!

Best wishes,
Earnest

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

You did notice how thoughts of an 'I' 'choosing' in a 'future', can appear as well as thoughts about a 'me' that 'chose' in a 'past'? Does an actual 'self', an entity, appear at any moment (to do choosing) or are these thoughts always ABOUT an assumed 'me'?

No self materialises and does the choosing – decisions happen as part of the flow. Sometimes a thought appears first (e.g. “I’ll do this now”) and other times the body seems to know what to do. At any rate, the actions flow without an actual self appearing.

Having said that, it often takes a few minutes doing this kind of exercise before it is clear that “I” am not making decisions: when I am not focused, thoughts that “I” am doing/deciding are conflated with the flow of actions. In fact several times it has happened that there has been some sort of clear recognition that there is no “I” behind decisions/actions; but then, the default mode of conflating “I” thoughts with choosing/acting kicks back in, to my disappointment!

Look at 'decisions'. If you drive, go for a journey and notice at any moment if there is a controller 'deciding' to change gear or accelerate, check mirrors etc, or if these things tend to flow along without much reference to a 'me'? Did someone, for instance, 'decide ' to find car keys or did this happen without even thinking about it?

I haven’t done the driving exercise as yet, but I have been doing this noticing while performing chores around my apartment, and I’ve been finding it very useful. Especially while doing manual tasks, it quickly becomes clear upon looking that there is no “I” doing the choosing, or directing the actions.

Best wishes,
Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

Having said that, it often takes a few minutes doing this kind of exercise before it is clear that “I” am not making decisions: when I am not focused, thoughts that “I” am doing/deciding are conflated with the flow of actions. In fact several times it has happened that there has been some sort of clear recognition that there is no “I” behind decisions/actions; but then, the default mode of conflating “I” thoughts with choosing/acting kicks back in, to my disappointment!

It is worth continuing to look for 'I', 'self', 'chooser' and 'decider' in various different circumstances or situations. At least until it is clear that, when looked for, these will never be found. The illusion of these will appear in thought, won't it? But can anything prevent the 'seeing' from happening?

Even though temporary identification occurs and it seems like 'self' might be back in business, was one ever 'there' in the first place?

If 'self' can't be found was it ever 'there'? Or is this simply the way things are?

Where there has been an expectation that all thoughts will drop or that there will be no more illusion of 'self' appearing some disappointment may be inevitable. Do you see that this expectation may stand in the way of realisation?

What is this disappointment? Look at it. Is it an attachment to an idea of how 'enlightenment should look'? But the various exercises you have been doing have been successfully revealing no 'self' and no 'chooser'. Keep looking at these things and continue to notice how thoughts keep providing a narrative. Do you find that every so often a narrative or story that has been going on is seen through?



Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I’m sorry for being a little late with my reply.

It is worth continuing to look for 'I', 'self', 'chooser' and 'decider' in various different circumstances or situations. At least until it is clear that, when looked for, these will never be found.

Yes, I’ve been continuing to look for “I” and “chooser/decider” in various situations since my last post. Although when I look I do seem to see that actions, decisions etc are happening without the agency of an “I”, still, something seems unclear – I can’t quite put my finger on it. In any case, I feel that the looking is beneficial, and I will continue.

The illusion of these will appear in thought, won't it? But can anything prevent the 'seeing' from happening?

If seeing is inevitable with continued looking, then I don’t see how it can be prevented. I must admit to ongoing scepticism, though – to sceptical thoughts such as “It’s outlandish to think there could be no self!”, or “I’m never going to get it – I’m kidding myself that any progress is being made.” On the other hand, I still feel very motivated to continue this investigation.

Even though temporary identification occurs and it seems like 'self' might be back in business, was one ever 'there' in the first place?

At this point, the not seeing of a “self” when I look is limited to the moments or periods when I’m looking; so it is these glimpses that seem temporary rather than the sense of being an “I”. I know that this sense of being an “I” is rooted in thoughts of an “I”, but there is still a sense that this is my default mode of being.

If 'self' can't be found was it ever 'there'? Or is this simply the way things are?

As I mentioned in my previous post, there have been a few moments when I was able to see that if a self cannot be seen, then it seems that there isn’t one, and in that case there never was one. In those moments, it seemed clear (?), but at other times (like now), the best I am able to do is not to see a “self” when I look for one. Anything further than that seems like an intellectual conclusion. But I will stay with this question.

Where there has been an expectation that all thoughts will drop or that there will be no more illusion of 'self' appearing some disappointment may be inevitable. Do you see that this expectation may stand in the way of realisation?

I’m not sure exactly what my expectations are here – there may be some hidden ones. I don’t believe I’m expecting thoughts to drop, or for the illusion of “self” to evaporate. I am hoping that there will be some definite shift in perspective - whether sudden or gradual - from a basic default belief in a “self” at the centre of “my” life, to a default mode of being where it is seen clearly (even if not all the time) that no such “self” exists. When you say “realization” this is what I understand it to mean. And I don’t see how expectations can ultimately prevent this shift if one continues to look for a “self”, though I can see how unrealistic expectations might slow things down.

What is this disappointment? Look at it. Is it an attachment to an idea of how 'enlightenment should look'?

There was a little disappointment those (two or three) times when I felt I’d arrived at a clarity about there being no “self”, but a few hours later, the clarity faded.

Keep looking at these things and continue to notice how thoughts keep providing a narrative.

Yes, I’ll keep looking!

Do you find that every so often a narrative or story that has been going on is seen through?

I’m remembering a couple of occasions when I felt bad for acting in a certain way, and then, upon looking, didn’t see a “self” that was initiating action; upon which I felt some relief. I’m not sure if this what you mean by a story being seen through?

Thanks, Jon, I’m feeling appreciation for your patient guidance!

Patrick

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

Yes, I’ve been continuing to look for “I” and “chooser/decider” in various situations since my last post. Although when I look I do seem to see that actions, decisions etc are happening without the agency of an “I”, still, something seems unclear – I can’t quite put my finger on it. In any case, I feel that the looking is beneficial, and I will continue.

It's good that the looking is benificial. To whom or what do things seem unclear? What is it that is unclear?

If seeing is inevitable with continued looking, then I don’t see how it can be prevented. I must admit to ongoing scepticism, though – to sceptical thoughts such as “It’s outlandish to think there could be no self!”, or “I’m never going to get it – I’m kidding myself that any progress is being made.” On the other hand, I still feel very motivated to continue this investigation.

It is very good that you have admitted these sceptical thoughts as they are very specific and can be addressed or questioned.

I understand the thought about it being 'outlandish to think there could be no self'. Nevertheless is there one, anywhere in experience? In sensation or in thoughts appearing, can a 'self' be found? It isn't so outlandish when one is not found, is it?

Are we to continue to believe that Santa is a real guy after all?

About the thoughts:

“I’m never going to get it – I’m kidding myself that any progress is being made.”

These are doubts. Sometimes there can be a fear of loosing control and such thoughts appear as a kind of resistance to taking a good look at the illusion of 'me'. But skeptical thoughts perform a useful service in that we don't just accept hearsay or new kinds of beliefs but must look directly to imediate experience for any truth.

At this point, the not seeing of a “self” when I look is limited to the moments or periods when I’m looking; so it is these glimpses that seem temporary rather than the sense of being an “I”. I know that this sense of being an “I” is rooted in thoughts of an “I”, but there is still a sense that this is my default mode of being.

Knowing intellectually is not enough. This is why the looking at experience is so vital.

As I mentioned in my previous post, there have been a few moments when I was able to see that if a self cannot be seen, then it seems that there isn’t one, and in that case there never was one. In those moments, it seemed clear (?), but at other times (like now), the best I am able to do is not to see a “self” when I look for one. Anything further than that seems like an intellectual conclusion

Do you imagine I am asking something more than this? The whole point of this is to notice that something that had been assumed to 'exist' simply isn't there, do you see? Santa is not a person that is 'there'.

Look at this idea..,'University' . It is possible to talk and think of a university as a kind of thing. 'Self' is a bit like this. University actually comprises many buildings, some spread around a large area, different departments, resources, projects, students and so on. There simply is not one 'thing' there but a collection of factors and events. If we tried to zoom in on the one thing that is supposed to be 'the university' we could not find it.

There was a little disappointment those (two or three) times when I felt I’d arrived at a clarity about there being no “self”, but a few hours later, the clarity faded.

Again, this honesty is very good and it is good to notice that this was the feeling.

I’m remembering a couple of occasions when I felt bad for acting in a certain way, and then, upon looking, didn’t see a “self” that was initiating action; upon which I felt some relief

Very valuable investigation and the sense of relief is interesting, isn't it?

I’m not sure if this what you mean by a story being seen through?

Absolutely. Yes. Notice other examples.


Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I’m quite tired tonight, so please excuse me if my post is a little incoherent.

It feels as if some sort of shift has happened, though I’m not sure quite how to characterize it. Last night, after reading your post, I was looking for a “self” while doing something in the kitchen. (I was tired last night too, so between tonight’s and last night’s tiredness, the memory is foggy.) At some point I felt the need to look more keenly, in a more penetrating way, for a “self” directing whatever I was doing. While looking with greater intensity, I suddenly felt a relaxation, as if something had been resolved. It seemed that something had been understood, grasped, though it was not cognitively clear what had been understood, if that makes any sense at all. It was just a sense that things had resolved. Today this feeling/knowing has persisited throughout the day - though, again, I have difficulty describing it. It feels as if the bubble of “my life” has dissolved. This feeling is subtle, and yet somehow obvious. When I am not involved in action or thought, I am relaxing into the sensations, sense-perceptions more deeply, without effort or urgency. I could describe it as resting in freedom.

Having said all that, when I look for a self, I’m not sure if it is any clearer cognitively that there isn’t one. This may simply be the persisting thoughts of a self that you spoke of.

I’ll sign off for now because I really need some sleep! I haven’t answered the questions in your last post, and I’ll try and do so tomorrow.

In any case, I’m quite willing to continue the investigation for as long as is necessary/fruitful.

Thanks, Jon. Appreciating as ever your patient guidance!

Patrick

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

It feels as if some sort of shift has happened, though I’m not sure quite how to characterize it. Last night, after reading your post, I was looking for a “self” while doing something in the kitchen. (I was tired last night too, so between tonight’s and last night’s tiredness, the memory is foggy.) At some point I felt the need to look more keenly, in a more penetrating way, for a “self” directing whatever I was doing. While looking with greater intensity, I suddenly felt a relaxation, as if something had been resolved. It seemed that something had been understood, grasped, though it was not cognitively clear what had been understood, if that makes any sense at all. It was just a sense that things had resolved. Today this feeling/knowing has persisited throughout the day - though, again, I have difficulty describing it. It feels as if the bubble of “my life” has dissolved. This feeling is subtle, and yet somehow obvious. When I am not involved in action or thought, I am relaxing into the sensations, sense-perceptions more deeply, without effort or urgency. I could describe it as resting in freedom.

This sounds good. Particularly the way you express it: 'the bubble of a 'my life' has dissolved'. But in fact everything you say here sounds good. 'Resting in freedom'; beautiful.

Having said all that, when I look for a self, I’m not sure if it is any clearer cognitively that there isn’t one. This may simply be the persisting thoughts of a self that you spoke of.

Well recognised and yes, more than likely. In the coming days or weeks it is quite possible to experience thoughts that will announce that 'nothing happened' but this will simply be thoughts doing announcements. Is there a 'self' that needs to 'believe' the announcements?

Realy good Earnest. Well done.

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

A brief update.

The sense of resolution or relaxation is still present. Yesterday there was more resting with experience in moments when I wasn’t involved in doing things.

Still there is some lack of clarity regarding the non-existence of an “I”: I don’t feel I’m at the “obviously no Santa” point yet.

In a previous post you asked,

To whom or what do things seem unclear? What is it that is unclear?

The lack of clarity simply seems to be present because of a persisting belief in a “self”. You have said that doubting thoughts are likely to continue arising after realization, and I think I get that (insofar as I can right now); but I’m not sure what “realization” can actually mean unless some sort of critical line has been crossed where even though thoughts of “I” persist, still there is a fundamental recognition that there is no “self”, and this has somehow become the default mode of being.

I’m wondering what this feeling of having let go of “my life” might mean. Is it just an insight on the way? Perhaps it will become clearer over the coming days?

In the meantime, yesterday I did a lot of noticing that acting and choosing was just happening, apparently without any “self”. I’m finding this exercise very worthwhile.

Best wishes,
Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

Still there is some lack of clarity regarding the non-existence of an “I”: I don’t feel I’m at the “obviously no Santa” point yet.

Let's look at this idea of 'non-existant' 'I'. Yes we look to see if a 'self' can be found in sensations and thoughts. On looking it is seen that no 'self' can be found. At this beautiful point no answers are given and no new beliefs are formed. Are words needed for it actually? But confusion can arise when there is some idea that we are being asked to see that 'I do not exist'. We are not pointing to any 'non-existence' of aliveness, simply to the emptiness of the previously assumed 'self'. Does that make sense?

A nice little exercise to go with this is to walk out to a park or to somewhere in nature. Somewhere where everything is alive. Sky, wind, sun, rain, grass, animals, insects, people, The whole lot going on. Just take some moments to experience everything, all sensations, Now look to see if is possibe to find a line or edge where you' end and 'everything else' starts. Is there such a line?

I’m wondering what this feeling of having let go of “my life” might mean. Is it just an insight on the way? Perhaps it will become clearer over the coming days?

It sounds very good. Is there any sense that 'you' did the 'letting go' or is it that this feeling it is just happening, just the way thngs are?

In the meantime, yesterday I did a lot of noticing that acting and choosing was just happening, apparently without any “self”. I’m finding this exercise very worthwhile.

It is very worthwhile becasue it can only assist whatever 'seeing' is already happening.

I’m not sure what “realization” can actually mean

Well, in that case forget the label 'realization'. It could be confusing, if it is sending you off looking for something that is supposed to correspond to it? Could be a complete red-herring.

Unless some sort of critical line has been crossed where even though thoughts of “I” persist, still there is a fundamental recognition that there is no “self”, and this has somehow become the default mode of being.

Is that the (your) experience?

Best wishes,

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your reply. I'll post properly tomorrow (need sleep now).

Best wishes,
Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

Ok. Thank you.

Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

I’m later than I hoped (yet again) with this reply – I apologise.

Let's look at this idea of 'non-existant' 'I'. Yes we look to see if a 'self' can be found in sensations and thoughts. On looking it is seen that no 'self' can be found. At this beautiful point no answers are given and no new beliefs are formed. Are words needed for it actually? But confusion can arise when there is some idea that we are being asked to see that 'I do not exist'. We are not pointing to any 'non-existence' of aliveness, simply to the emptiness of the previously assumed 'self'. Does that make sense?

I’m not sure I understand this, in relation to my “no Santa” concern. Are you saying that I should simply continue to notice that there is no “I”, rather than aim for an end point where it becomes clear that there is “no I”?

A nice little exercise to go with this is to walk out to a park or to somewhere in nature. Somewhere where everything is alive. Sky, wind, sun, rain, grass, animals, insects, people, The whole lot going on. Just take some moments to experience everything, all sensations, Now look to see if is possibe to find a line or edge where you' end and 'everything else' starts. Is there such a line?

I’ve done this walking around the town where I live, and I find it very useful. No, there is no line where ”I” end and “everything else” begins. Actually, this exercise was very enjoyable – There was a sense of participating in and as everything around me.

Is there any sense that 'you' did the 'letting go' or is it that this feeling it is just happening, just the way thngs are?

There is a curious sense of it being just the way things are. However, there are thoughts that say it happened after “I” made a special effort to look more deeply (last Sunday), and thoughts that ask whether it will last.

Is that the (your) experience?

No, it’s not my experience, but it is still an expectation. Are you suggesting that it would be better just to continue looking without this expectation? Is that what you were referring to at the beginning of your last post?

I did a lot of looking yesterday, to the point where I started to feel stressed out (though, as I mentioned, I’ve been tired recently). Perhaps I should continue investigating in a more relaxed way…

Thanks, Jon.

Best wishes,
Earnest

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

I will reply more fully later but I see that I have not been quite accurate enough in my wording. Where I said :

But confusion can arise when there is some idea that we are being asked to see that 'I do not exist'.

A separate 'self' does not exist Never has done. It is an illusion. But the confusion I was trying to describe is where it is then (wrongly) assumed that 'I am nothing'. Hope that's clearer?

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hi Earnest,

in relation to my “no Santa” concern. Are you saying that I should simply continue to notice that there is no “I”, rather than aim for an end point where it becomes clear that there is “no I”?

Looking and noticing is the main thing. Don't be overly concerned about any end point. Looking, here and now is the end point. This is why we call it the gateless gate.

I’ve done this walking around the town where I live, and I find it very useful. No, there is no line where ”I” end and “everything else” begins. Actually, this exercise was very enjoyable – There was a sense of participating in and as everything around me.

Very good. Maybe try a park, or nature, if there is access to this?

There is a curious sense of it being just the way things are. However, there are thoughts that say it happened after “I” made a special effort to look more deeply (last Sunday), and thoughts that ask whether it will last.

Looking is the key and there is often a thought that it is 'me' that is doing the looking but then there is some sort of shift that need not be very dramatic but there is a kind of relaxation. I will not tell you that you have seen through the illusion of 'self'. When you are ready and feel that it has been seen you will let me know. But don't underestimate this shift that you are describing. It is very common to notice thoughts about whether it will last.

No, it’s not my experience, but it is still an expectation. Are you suggesting that it would be better just to continue looking without this expectation? Is that what you were referring to at the beginning of your last post?

Yes. Becasue any idea about 'how it should feel' or 'how it should look' or even 'how it must be' is a preconception and not a direct experience. Thought is a very slippery customer and what is needed is to see that the 'self' refered has never been 'there'. I must say that what you have said about letting go of a 'my life' sounds very good.

I did a lot of looking yesterday, to the point where I started to feel stressed out (though, as I mentioned, I’ve been tired recently). Perhaps I should continue investigating in a more relaxed way…

If you like. At this stage it is often a good idea to push further by looking at thoughts, so as to see that any reference to 'me', a 'my life' , 'self' is always a thought or thought-feeling combined. Stress can sometimes be experienced becasue the looking is going so well and there is some sort of resistance and fear. If this becomes intense let me know and ease off but it may dissolve anyway.

All the best
Jon

[EarnestP]

Hi Jon,

My late replies have become a bit of a habit and I’m sorry about that.

Looking is the key and there is often a thought that it is 'me' that is doing the looking but then there is some sort of shift that need not be very dramatic but there is a kind of relaxation. I will not tell you that you have seen through the illusion of 'self'. When you are ready and feel that it has been seen you will let me know. But don't underestimate this shift that you are describing. It is very common to notice thoughts about whether it will last.

It seems that “I” have gone through the gateless gate, Jon! I hesitate to say it, as there are still doubting thoughts, but a “self” is nowhere to be found except in thoughts of a self.

Yesterday, on waking, I looked for a self, and as usual, didn’t find one, but this time I knew I wasn’t going to find one. This “knowing I wasn’t going to find a self” persisted for the rest of the day and night (I still have to go to bed!). In a subtle way, it feels conclusive (though, as I mentioned, there are thoughts that suggest it’s too subtle to mean anything, or that it won’t last).

Reflecting on your last post, I think possibly that sense of “letting go” last Sunday night was a letting go of the fundamental belief in a self, even though there wasn’t cognitive clarity around it. Your last post was really helpful in helping me to get clarity.

A separate 'self' does not exist Never has done. It is an illusion. But the confusion I was trying to describe is where it is then (wrongly) assumed that 'I am nothing'. Hope that's clearer?

Even though I knew this already, the way you stated it here helped me to discriminate easily between the sense of aliveness that is really present, and the sense of self, which is made up of thoughts.

Looking and noticing is the main thing. Don't be overly concerned about any end point. Looking, here and now is the end point. This is why we call it the gateless gate.

This, too, helped me to relax into simply looking. When I looked for a “self” yesterday upon waking up, I think the fact that I wasn’t striving to cross some finish line allowed me to notice that there was no real expectation to find a self, that some shift had already taken place.

So it looks as if there’s no Santa! I’m not sure what else to add right now – I’m going to try and get a few hours’ sleep.

Thank you for your skilful and patient guidance!

Best wishes,
Earnest