Help to disappear

[Anna77]

Hi Michael :)

You're back! I notice you actually replied a number of days ago, so I'm sorry for not checking until now...anyway, let's go along and see what is here...

In response to the question of whether there can ever be a self directing or controlling anything ever, you replied

No, guess (!) not. I may need to build up the casuistry a bit more.

To build up the casuistry would simply be a matter of looking at life as it happens with direct experience...as you do this, look for whether or not you can find a separate self directing or controlling thoughts or actions or any aspect of life.

Thoughts are structured in a way that makes it seem like there is a self, or thinker

Yes, this is true....look at the thoughts...are "you" your thoughts? Is that where the sense of separate self is? A collection of thoughts?

I am usually quite clear in the morning, and then during the course of the day I tend to get mucked up in thoughts

We are not trying to get to some state free of thoughts. It is not what we are doing here...so getting enmeshed with thought is no problem, it's just something happening.

That’s tight to the notion of the body as the experiencer,

The body is the experiencer, of course it has to be, it is experiencing through all facets of sensory perception. So you can be comfortable with allowing that to be as it is....the thing we have been looking for is whether "you" are the body...just because the body is experiencing, does that mean there is a separate self doing the experiencing?

What is common sense? Is it a real thing, like a chair, or a tree? If not, then what is it that persists?

There is only one way to "tackle" these "issues" - there actually are no issues to tackle, but if you feel like playing that game, here is the only thing you can do that will assist in playing the game...looking at life as it happens -bin the moment, not thinking about past or future - look with direct experience...as you do this, look for whether or not you can find a separate self directing or controlling thoughts or actions or any aspect of life. That is all there is to it my dear, nothing more, nothing less.

If you just kept looking - really looking consistently - you'll keep finding yourself come back to the same realization as you have numerous times here...That is all there is to do...just look at life with direct experience and see of there is a separate self driving any of, the thoughts, the actions, the sensations, the experiencing...

Over to you Michael :) xxn

[millefiori]

Hi Neroli :)

Just a quick update. And sorry for being so damn slow with this. It’s page 4 already :D
It’s getting somewhat clear.. not in a frontal way, more of a feeling slowly sneaking up on me like, hey, there’s no one here acting, saying, even thinking (although I still tend to focus on it). I have had some potentially life changing news lately, but thoughts were followed by some questioning, like who’d they affect, and dropped almost instantly.

Yes, this is true....look at the thoughts...are "you" your thoughts? Is that where the sense of separate self is? A collection of thoughts?

Definitely, a collection of thoughts, claiming to belong to another thought. In DE right now, there is space filled with colors, sounds and thought(s). No experiencer, separate from it. To get slightly philosophical, it occurred to me to think something like, ok I see what I am not, but I still do not see what I am. More thoughts to see through, I am sure, but there’s still a feeling of incompleteness. I’ll keep at it, and sorry for playing games, I’m not sure what it means but it’s pretty unintentional.
Talk to you soon! Best,

M

[Anna77]

Hi Michael :)

How are you going? I have been way out of your loop for some time as I'm sure you've noted! I kept moving places/cities and finally moved countries last week...so just didn't get back to our thread until now.

I saw that you had written that you had had some potentially life changing news - way back on Fri 13th Nov...I hope that your looking with DE continued to bring you that experience of thoughts dropping away of no consequence as life throws curve balls your way....life is always going to do stuff, always, being able to look at it with DE makes all the difference to the experience "we" have :)

As far as our work here goes dear M, I'm sure you can tell now that there is no other game in town besides looking at EVERYTHING with direct experience...thoughts, sensations, all manner of sensory perception...that's all there ever is to "do" here...to look with DE and see if there is a self in there, directing or controlling any of it. And to just keep following this enquiry.

The tricky part is that we both have been absent from the conversation for considerable lengths of time sometimes...so without the continual and consistent looking with DE, it can feel or appear as though what you have seen with DE fades and there is still a separate sense of self somehow directing or controlling...but we can just keep looking for as long as it takes to see and feel whether there is really a self or not.

In your last msg, you said that definitely, a sense of a separate self was the result of a collection of thoughts...that's a really good thing to continue looking at...when thinking is happening....look at the thoughts, look with DE and see where the self is...is it there? Is there a self directing or controlling the thoughts?

You said, you still do not see what you are...look with DE, is there a you at all? In order to see what you are, there needs to be a defined self - right? So, is there a defined self? When you looked with DE in the last thread, there was space filled with colors, sounds and thoughts, no experiencer separate from this...just experiencing happening. So, look again, and tell me, is there a defined self, separate from experience? Or is there just experience happening when you really look with Direct experience?

Big hugs, xxn

[millefiori]

Dear N,

Hi! Pleasure to reconnect, I hope you found a nice place to settle down. I've seen your message last week but haven't had time to properly reply. I t's going fine! I will try to post a reply tomorrow. It's great to have the opportunity to discuss and fine up things, whenever you have time for it.
A demain, hopefully. Hugs,

M

[millefiori]

Dear Neroli,
Hi, I am so sorry to have left you hanging there. It’s a busy time here but most of all I wanted to write something when I felt I had something concrete in my hands, instead of a confused blob of half baked intuitions.
Unfortunately, this is gonna be an example of the latter!
What to say, I don’t feel I’m there yet (I’m dropping the nondual jargon here). The investigation has been done, the matter deconstructed over and over. The seeing still doesn’t register, or it does in flashes of intuitions and then gets bogged in thoughts.
So to answer your last question: ‘is there a defined self, separate from experience?’
Of course, no (dammit!). A feeling of self at most, a thought of it.
I’d just love to wrap this up here and now, but it’s as if the mind and the weight of the past is too strong for it to let go.
I’ve had better days at this, but I wanted to give you an update nonetheless.. I hope the new life is going fine for you. Talk to you soon!
Cheers,

Michael