Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

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Marlene
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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Thu Oct 22, 2015 11:37 am

Hi Drdhamati,
I was disheartened after reading your last post. But I take the point of what this dialogue is concerned with.

So carrying on.
You wrote: So while this is in agreement with the experience here, how is this conclusion informed:
1 from sustained observation of direct experience?
Or...
2 from speculative thinking?
Please feel free to test observation of experience, again and again. :-)
What I said is informed from thinking, mostly from studying suttas like Satipatthana Sutta and Alagaddupama Sutta.

The thinking itself also arises from some, not sustained, observation of direct experience.

And direct experience informs what I said. Those moments that arose were complete in themselves. No further clarification of them was needed.

As I said somewhere above, feeling-tone in my experience comes so very rapidly after contact that it’s hard to separate the two. But on the other hand, the direct moments evoked something different. Maybe different from vedana. I don’t know if that’s true. I’m now speculating, so will stop.
Where is this 'self, me, mine' commonly known as Marlene/Kulaprabha? Is there such an entity? If so where can it be found?
There’s the image now of her, ephemeral, sitting in spaces between the incoming moments. Interpreting. The odd moment gets clean by her. Her intentions are good on the whole. She provides a point of reference. There's an inner space behind her.

See you later.
Kulaprabha

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:42 pm

Hi Kulaprabha,
I was disheartened after reading your last post. But I take the point of what this dialogue is concerned with.
Is there anything you wish to share, anything that needs explaining?
The thinking itself also arises from some, not sustained, observation of direct experience.
And direct experience informs what I said.
There is a causal relationship being assumed here.
Can this relationship be observed in direct experience?
Please remember the exercise with raising the hands: was there any causal relationship observed between hands being raised and thinking so, then?
Those moments that arose were complete in themselves. No further clarification of them was needed.
Indeed. Clarification -or attempts at clarifying- is superfluous mind activity.
...But on the other hand, the direct moments evoked something different. Maybe different from vedana. I don’t know if that’s true. I’m now speculating, so will stop.
All that's needed here is more, sustained observation of experience. It's like any other training, the more the better. :-)
A 'gap' has been noticed, so as you rightly say 'stop speculate' and keep observing. That's great work actually Kulaprabha: this gap isn't all that easy to see.
There’s the image now of her, ephemeral, sitting in spaces between the incoming moments. Interpreting. The odd moment gets clean by her. Her intentions are good on the whole. She provides a point of reference. There's an inner space behind her.
Is there really all this?
What experience is being observed here? Not any experience from the 5 physical senses (vision, hearing, etc...) so it must be mind activity.
Observing mind activity what is revealed? What happens 'in mind'?

All the best
Dridhamati

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:17 pm

Hi there,
When you said: Is there anything you wish to share, anything that needs explaining?
No. Penny has dropped now, I’m pretty sure. Looking at what I wrote:
There’s the image now ……inner space behind her.


I am now laughing. Tricycle seem to be sending happily relevant quotes over in this direction. This from Toni Packer: “As long as I am thinking about it I am circumnavigating it. I am not really with it, seeing it unconditionally.” I suspect my thinking abilities are rather skilled circumnavigators. :-)

As to where Marlene/Kulaprabha might be found, I keep an eye out for her but she’s neither here nor there, even with two names.

You also said:
There is a causal relationship being assumed here.
Can this relationship be observed in direct experience?
Please remember the exercise with raising the hands: was there any causal relationship observed between hands being raised and thinking so, then?
This was in response to my statement :
”The thinking itself also arises from some, not sustained, observation of direct experience.”
When looking, I notice happening(s) followed by subsequent happening(s). I’ve never detected “a thing” between the happenings. And I notice that lack of happening(s) is often followed by lack of subsequent happening(s). No substantive connectors in either case. The first time I noticed lack of a substantive connecting "thing", it scared the living daylights out of me.

I haven’t read all of the Toni Packer article. The link is http://www.tricycle.com/feature/end-story

Bye for now,
Kulaprabha

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:44 am

Hi Kulaprabha,
No. Penny has dropped now, I’m pretty sure.
Great, I am happy you had a good laugh about it. Let's get more of these penny-droppings shall we. :-)
I suspect my thinking abilities are rather skilled circumnavigators. :-)
And, on the relative level of this "everyday life", these thinking abilites are a very useful skill to possess indeed. This ancient teacher I have quoted at times ( ;-) ) seemed to have had very acute thinking abilities.
As to where Marlene/Kulaprabha might be found, I keep an eye out for her but she’s neither here nor there, even with two names.
Pretty much the same with Dridhamati, thanks.
So, looking in direct experience, please tell me: where is this "self", this "enduring, separate 'thing'"? Can it be located, pinpointed?
No substantive connectors in either case. The first time I noticed lack of a substantive connecting "thing", it scared the living daylights out of me.
This isn't, strictly speaking, part of this dialogue. The question was asked in order to challenge the established view, and to foster a spirit of 'no holds barred inquiry'.
This lack of 'substantive connectors' is certainly something major to notice, and can create serious tsunamis in the otherwise peaceful ocean of a Buddhist mind kept at rest by the all-pervading concept of patitya samutpada. Something to come back to later if you wish.

Thanks for the link.

All the best
dridhamati

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:32 pm

So, looking in direct experience, please tell me: where is this "self", this "enduring, separate 'thing'"? Can it be located, pinpointed?
Looking. Not finding any "self", "enduring, separate ‘thing’". No location for such a “thing”. No “thing” being pinpointed.

:-) Cheers
Kulaprabha

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:52 pm

Hi Kulaprabha,
Looking. Not finding any "self", "enduring, separate ‘thing’". No location for such a “thing”. No “thing” being pinpointed.
Great, thanks for that.
So if this self cannot be found, located, can it be said to exist?

Also, remember the exercise with raising the arms? Please try it again and this time look, in direct experience, for an agent responsible for the action.
Can such an agent be found? Does such an agent exist?

Great work Kulaprabha.

All the best
Dridhamati

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:29 pm

22) 31 October / 1 November

Hello
So if this self cannot be found, located, can it be said to exist?
No, this self can not be said to exist.
Also, remember the exercise with raising the arms? Please try it again and this time look, in direct experience, for an agent responsible for the action.
Can such an agent be found? Does such an agent exist?
A lot of looking going on here, Dridhamati. Arms lifting. Feet stepping. Etc. Can report that no agent is being found. Can also report that feet stopped for a few seconds half way up the stairs uncertain of how to proceed in response to the thought ‘No agent seems to exists’. On leaving the thought aside, feet were OK again and went upstairs with no bother. In direct experience, a lot of joy is present. Out of direct experience, unease.

All Hallows Eve/ All Saints & All Souls Days this weekend. Seems coincidentally appropriate somehow.

And a dream this morning about a very big, empty house which I owned and was wandering around looking for a room suitable for a lodger.

Bye for now,
Kulaprabha

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:52 pm

Hi Kulaprabha,
No, this self can not be said to exist.
Thank you for this confirmation.
Can report that no agent is being found.
Again thank you for the confirmation.
Can also report that feet stopped for a few seconds half way up the stairs uncertain of how to proceed in response to the thought ‘No agent seems to exists’. On leaving the thought aside, feet were OK again and went upstairs with no bother.
Hmm.
Looking in direct experience, is it really the thought (‘No agent seems to exists’) that stopped the feet, or is this just another thought, a construct that establishes a causal relationship?
In direct experience, a lot of joy is present. Out of direct experience, unease.
Do you wish to elaborate on this?

All Hallows Eve/ All Saints & All Souls Days this weekend. Seems coincidentally appropriate somehow.
And a dream this morning about a very big, empty house which I owned and was wandering around looking for a room suitable for a lodger.
:-)

All the best
Dridhamati

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Marlene
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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:55 am

Hi Dhridhamati
Looking in direct experience, is it really the thought (‘No agent seems to exists’) that stopped the feet, or is this just another thought, a construct that establishes a causal relationship?
What I wrote wasn’t very clear. On the stairs, direct looking had stopped. And I started thinking instead. Not clearly verbalised but along the lines of “if there’s no agent, how do things happen? choices get made? intentions pursued?”. Those sorts of reactions / questions. That’s also when unease arose.

It wasn’t that leaving the thought ‘No agent seems to exist’ aside enabled my feet to get going again. What happened was that I turned my attention directly to the unease and the unease dissolved. Pretty instantly. And unease hasn’t occurred again since as I’ve continued looking for an agent.

I said joy arises. It’s more a physical sensation than an emotion. A sort of quivering aliveness.

Kind regards,
Kulaprabha

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Wed Nov 04, 2015 10:52 am

Hi Kulaprabha,
What I wrote wasn’t very clear. On the stairs, direct looking had stopped. And I started thinking instead. Not clearly verbalised but along the lines of “if there’s no agent, how do things happen? choices get made? intentions pursued?”. Those sorts of reactions / questions. That’s also when unease arose.
Yet “things do happen, choices do get made, intentions are pursued.” At least that's what appears at the level of everyday life, isn't it?
All that we are interested in seeing here is if there is a 'self', a fixed separate 'self', in charge behind it all. And you've observed no such 'self', have you?
What happened was that I turned my attention directly to the unease and the unease dissolved. Pretty instantly. And unease hasn’t occurred again since as I’ve continued looking for an agent.
Great.
I said joy arises. It’s more a physical sensation than an emotion. A sort of quivering aliveness.
:-)

At this point Kulaprabha, I ask a series of 6 questions. The responses help determine if all bases have been covered. The questions can be answered all at once, or one by one. Either way they are best answered from direct experience.
Here goes.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


All the best
Didhamati

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:52 pm

Hi Dridhamati
Sorry it's taken me a few days to reply. I thought I could send you my responses so far. Can we wait until I've responded to all them before carrying on? I should be finished by the weekend.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, not in any way shape or form, ever.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
So, before, I would have described that self as sitting in the central control room, taking on board what was happening, making decisions and carrying out the tactics to accomplish those. Not as robotic as that sounds. Not coldly unemotional. Capable of compassion. But that sort of setup. All revolving round a central ‘presence’.

Now I’m seeing that presence of self as a phantom. I can sense the habit of that self, sense when that habitual momentum of self gets stronger in response to events. And I can also look through it. Looking through it, at any moment I see many ‘presences’ - memories, feelings, sensations, thoughts … - that exist, move, disappear, co-operate, or sometimes conflict, and all of them together are what make me up. Sometimes happily, sometimes not, but coherently with no need of any ‘central self-casting.’ That simple! Who would have thought it!

Let me tell you about an experience I had after my mum died. It was a peaceful death and timely but from my side, my mum had gone. After sitting one last time with her at the undertakers, I was walking home, surrounded by passers-by, and I seemed to taking part in a drama. A drama where Death was the main character but whom all the other characters moved smoothly around, like a very well practised choreographed dance: like water flowing round a rock, they never allude to him, never speak to him and never look at him. Walking along the street, I could, in my minds eye, see all this happening, how the presence of Death is amongst us all the time but never acknowledged. A felt presence whom we would all be better off acknowledging rather than conspiring together to ignore. It wasn’t a frightening experience. It was releasing.

I haven’t thought about that for a long time but the memory of that experience has come back vividly to me right now sitting with your question. That experience and now seeing through self both bring forth the same ‘Ah’ sense of realisation. In fact seeing through Self seems pretty similar to that experience of seeing Death. Maybe one is just the mirror image of the other.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels a mixture of things.

Occasionally still the unease that was reported earlier. But that now seems just a remainder of a habit that still has some momentum but dissolves easily when looked at.

More often what’s present is an underlying subtle, aware aliveness. The ‘quivering’ I reported earlier.

And there’s also now a relaxation that’s happening. Looking is more ordinary, familar. In the past, intermittenly looking directly was more a ‘wow’ than ordinary.

Be back soon!
Kulaprabha

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:35 am

Thanks for that. I'll wait until the last batch is up.
All the best
Dridhamati

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Sun Nov 15, 2015 6:47 pm

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It was your question earlier on this dialogue about feeling where you asked:
Does experience have qualities such as pleasant, or unpleasant, soothing, threatening, etc?
That question seemed to be coming from a context familiar to me from Buddhism (vedana, nidanas, etc) and it took me a while to see that you were pointing to something other than I was assuming and expecting. Basically, my mind was getting in the way even though it was getting in the way with some valuable Buddhist teachings! But there was a moment of direct seeing and then more of them. And my normal ways of experience now seem to be filtered and not transparent, as if through a veil, or even as if in a dream. Not a nightmare, but the dream imposing on direct simplicity..


5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
What makes things happen? Now there’s a question! Does anyone know the answer to that? In the past weeks, I’ve often been looking at myself acting and wondering how did that actually happen? when did I decide to turn and look out the window? I’m often not convinced that there was any decision at all! But still, things happen. Choices are made. Sometimes when I look I can only say it's a mystery - there is momentary movement of thoughts and feelings and things happen! Who'd have thought it!

Certainly, in experience, I see the past, my past, getting in the way of present directness. The past involves moving patterns - of emotions, of thoughts, of likes and dislikes - and those patterns have momentum and can intercede and make things happen. Being a well-trained Buddhist, I know how to recognise these as klesas which is basically what I mean by past patterns and veils. Unhelpful patterns can be pushed back, or at least pushed aside, with helpful patterns. It’s been a great boon to me to learn how to recognise and practice that on a thinking and feeling level.

An example, not recent, is the practice I’ve put into recognising patterns in me that stem from being adopted. No matter how good an adoption is, there are deeply set insecurities as well. Mine surfaced when I was in my 30s, a mother myself, and a regular meditator. It took a while, years, but I got to know and understand what I called my adoptive patterns and I knew what triggered them and I could mitigate them. All very well worth while doing. It opened up new choices and directions in my life and friendships.

But none of that work involved any direct seeing. The direct experence didn’t happen until some years later and came after some months of peronal angst when I had had the rug pulled out from under my assumptions of where my life was proceding. It triggered old fears around being abandoned. I took some months out to be more solitary and one morning was vaguely listening to the BBC Sunday Service of all things. Some words in it as I heard them prompted an experience of ‘falling through myself’ and directly seeing that a) up till then I had been holding myself together, or holding myself up in a way that was had been protecting a felt hollowness in me; and b) I hadn’t died as a result of letting go. The falling through experience dissolved that holding pattern, the hollowness was revealed as a delusion and turned into its opposite - an utterly reliable inner space of trusting confidence. The intensity of that experience has diminished with time but never been extinguished.

A recent experience was yesterday when on the phone to a friend whose dog I’ll be looking after next weekend. Listening to her lengthy instructions, even though presented tactfully as suggestions, about how to look after the dog, I was getting increasingly narked cos I know how to look after the dog. I could have used thought to stop that narkiness in its tracks. I didn’t do that. I just started listening directly to her. Narkiness disappeared. I understand what anxieties are involved for her. We both now trust that the dog will be fine.

The falling through experience was a one-off spectacular though it’s effects have remained firmly embedded. The telephone call yesterday was not spectacular but I sense it’s a way of being that’s more effective for its ordinariness.

As ever, I’m responsible for my actions, speech and my mental states. That hasn’t changed. Plus now I feel a responsibility to listen directly or see directly as much as I can. I still have my abilities to think things through when directness fails me. Or to be more precise when I fail to look directly. So far, my experience of directly looking is that it allows things to happen in a much simpler way. It’s mysterious still and it's very alive and I really really enjoy that!


6) Anything to add?
Well some words come to mind:

I’ve mentioned some of them before - feeling myself relaxed deeply, at ease. As I’m writing this I feeling gratitude. Open-hearted connected gratitude. To whom? I don’t know. Maybe to the universe!

The BBC ran a pilot Sci-fi series some years back called Outcasts. The blurb describes it as “A group of courageous pioneers face a unique opportunity: the chance to build a new and better future on another planet.” I really liked it. But it didn’t get high enough audience figures and they scapped it after eight episodes. At one point, one of the main character asks another main character if she ever wonders what the point of life is? To which the reply was “Well I think the point is just to be as completely part of it as you can.” These past weeks, I feel more completely part of being alive and I’m grateful for that.

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby dridhamati » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:43 pm

Hi Kulaprabha,

Thank you for your answers, a pleasure reading them.
I just have a couple of questions, for clarity's sake.
Now I’m seeing that presence of self as a phantom...
A phantom? Could you please expand here?
In fact seeing through Self seems pretty similar to that experience of seeing Death. Maybe one is just the mirror image of the other.
Thanks for sharing that story. And for this interesting conclusion/question.
...And my normal ways of experience now seem to be filtered and not transparent, as if through a veil, or even as if in a dream. Not a nightmare, but the dream imposing on direct simplicity.
Are these ways of experiencing (filtered, through a veil, in a dream) 'normal'?
These past weeks, I feel more completely part of being alive and I’m grateful for that.
Nice. :-)

All the best
Dridhamati

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Re: Marlene H (requesting Dridhamati)

Postby Marlene » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:24 pm

Hi Dridhamati
A phantom? Could you please expand here?
I just meant that the idea of ‘my self’ is now clearly seen as a construct with no substance, permanence, inherent existence. In the past, my idea of ‘my self’ had acquired ‘substance’ and those other attributes. In direct seeing, the idea of ‘self’ and its attributed ideas of ‘substance’ etc dissolve. Hence using the word ‘phantom’, in its sense of an illusion, as a metaphor for that past idea of ‘self’. I didn’t mean ‘phantom’ in its other sense of a physical manifestation of a soul or essence.

Are these ways of experiencing (filtered, through a veil, in a dream) ‘normal'?
I was trying to describe old ways of ‘non-direct experiencing’ So I was reflecting in the present on memories of things done or said when there was no direct looking happening. So ‘normal’ really meant ‘former’ or ‘previous’ in that sentence. And comparing ‘then’ with ‘now’ , what was ‘normal’ for me then now seems dreamlike.

Right this instant though I'm kinda chuckling at the attempt to compare 'before' and 'now'! Comparison seems redundant Just looking directly is enough in itself.

Regards,
Kulaprabha


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