Seeing (thru) the ego

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:49 pm

I'm sorry to hear about your motorbike accident. hope that is now sorted.
What’s left then? Sensations, images , thoughts, sounds, etc.
ok, now go back the other way.
When thoughts about 'i/me' come up again, is there anything 'extra' there, like a self? or just more sensations/images/sounds and thoughts?

There’s always a question arising when the whole body is seen in a mirror: “ is that really me ?”
ok, great question. what's the answer?
In the mirror take a look at the whole body and any objects around it. even put an object, like a stuffed toy in the 'frame' with you. Now relaxing, see if from the bare experience of the images seen is any part of that image in the mirror more 'me' than any other? How exactly is that known?
it is not an optic illusion to me: I can see the edges / the limits of this part of the body by contrast with the table.
you seemed to have missed what the image was trying to point at.
It's challenging you just like I am above to answer 'what exactly in the experience itself makes that image of a hand more 'me' than the rest of the picture?'

Take a look at this video and give me a response to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwn1w7MJvk
That “stephane / I / me” label refers to sensations and images (what is seen of that organism) that are occurring “somewhere here”.
What 'organism'? is an 'organism' the actual experience happening right now? Shut your eyes. Having done vippasana meditation this must be familiar territory....

Is there an organism to be found in that experience? or just sensations? Do those bare sensations have a size? a shape? a density? a location?

Where is 'here'? Take our right index finger and point to 'here', this assumed central point of experience. Tell me what happens and explain to me why that point is more 'here' than anywhere else.

If it was seen there was no separate self, then....I’d create one ;), or I’d love everybody or I wouldn’t need anything anymore or I’d write a book about it or I’d tell people around me or I’d quit my job or I’d go for a pilgrimage in India or people would think I’m crazy or the separate self would show up again and I’d have lost what had been seen or…
I'm sorry if i'm wrong but I'm feeling you are being jokey/flippant here.

I'm asking for nothing less than 100% honesty at this point. Or this process will not work out.
Expectations and fears may very well be the only thing preventing the simple seeing of what you came here for.

So let's get real here. I'm looking for thoughts/ideas that come with an emotional response, that make you cringe, excited about some 'gain' that might happen, or that trigger fear in your gut.

So 'take two'...
If it was seen there was no separate self, then...
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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stephaneHKG2015
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:29 pm

I'm all right now, thanks.

ok, now go back the other way.
When thoughts about 'i/me' come up again, is there anything 'extra' there, like a self? or just more sensations/images/sounds and thoughts?

Nothing extra there, just the same stuff of thoughts, sensations, images etc.

There’s always a question arising when the whole body is seen in a mirror: “ is that really me ?”ok, great question. what's the answer?

I've always had a doubt. Today I only see what’s called the whole body as an image. What is perceiving this image ?
A question I can’t answer.

In the mirror take a look at the whole body and any objects around it. even put an object, like a stuffed toy in the 'frame' with you. Now relaxing, see if from the bare experience of the images seen is any part of that image in the mirror more 'me' than any other? How exactly is that known?

Funny experience. There’s no part of the image that feels more “me” or mine than any other. Even in terms of sensations when an object is being hold, the boundaries between inside/ outside / clothes / objects are very unclear.

'what exactly in the experience itself makes that image of a hand more 'me' than the rest of the picture?'

I’m seeing what I’ve missed before: in direct experience it’s true that the focus on a certain part of the image doesn’t make what appears more “real or “mine” than the rest of the background. But sensations do “ that pain in my toe!”.

Is there an organism to be found in that experience? or just sensations? Do those bare sensations have a size? a shape? a density? a location?

No organism but a quick succession of sensations, sounds, thoughts etc. Sensations could be labeled in different manners but in bare experience they have none.

Where is 'here'? Take our right index finger and point to 'here', this assumed central point of experience.

I can’t point at any specific place since experiences are constantly happening in different locations which are very difficult to point at.

'take two'... (i don't mean to be frivolous but "seeing through the ego " doesnt feel something very emotional to me.) What is felt most strongly is doubt: can it happen ? will it ? how ? by way of (this) practice ? by grace ? and so on. Anyway:
If it was seen there was no separate self, then...i’d be done with my story, self and other judgment, I’d could be always et forever content, enjoying the union with the uniververse ; I’d go in deep nature to feel that. Later I’d like to share with other people so they cold get rid of their suffering. May be I’d have some supernatural siddis and I’d say “ oh! those were true!”; or / and because I wouldn’t care about anything anymore I’d loose my job / possessions, my girlfriend would go away, no friends left: I’d wake up one day with my story fully back …

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:41 pm

Nothing extra there, just the same stuff of thoughts, sensations, images etc.
Yes.
I've always had a doubt. Today I only see what’s called the whole body as an image. What is perceiving this image ?
A question I can’t answer.
An image as in seeing the body like seeing a table or tv? Or seeing an image in imagination?
Either way the same inquiry can happen- this is about looking for a see-er of colours/shapes/images. Visual stuff can for most be the most tricky 'sense' to look at. This is why many of the exercises used start with 'with your eyes closed'.

But it's the same movement as examining the experience for a separate hearer, smeller, toucher etc that we did before.

You mentioned at one point a feeling of something inside the head looking out. Is that still the case? tell me more about that, what is that experience constructed out of? particular sensations. Is it like this image?

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxQIO ... XpFSHA2OGc
Funny experience. There’s no part of the image that feels more “me” or mine than any other. Even in terms of sensations when an object is being hold, the boundaries between inside/ outside / clothes / objects are very unclear.
Beautiful.
Are there really any actual boundaries there at all? Or is that stuff 'added on' by thoughts and images?
I’m seeing what I’ve missed before: in direct experience it’s true that the focus on a certain part of the image doesn’t make what appears more “real or “mine” than the rest of the background. But sensations do “ that pain in my toe!”.
ok great looking. Let's examine the sensations/images link further. Did you watch the 'rubber hand illusion' video?

lets stick with the hand. sit quietly and look at the hand resting on something. Also be aware of any particular sensations that seem to be 'from that hand'. get really clear on all that.
Now shut your eyes. so there is now no longer any images of the hand, just the sensations right? or is there? you might find that there is still an image of the hand appearing in imagination. be clear if there is or not. then ignore that and go only to the raw sensations of 'the hand'.

what about those raw sensations only, are saying or communicating anything about 'hand', let alone 'my hand'?
What about those raw sensations only are saying anything about location, or shape or a hand, or size?

Let me know what is found.
No organism but a quick succession of sensations, sounds, thoughts etc. Sensations could be labeled in different manners but in bare experience they have none.
Nice looking!
I can’t point at any specific place since experiences are constantly happening in different locations which are very difficult to point at.
So is it clear there is no central point of location that experience emerges from or is happening to? Check this is different situations to be clear.

After checking this it might be useful to ask the question again 'Where is Stephane right now?' and see what is found.

*************
Let's go on to the expectations/fears aspect. There'sa lot in this post- feel free to do the above stuff and then look at this stuff separately to give everything proper attention.
(i don't mean to be frivolous but "seeing through the ego " doesnt feel something very emotional to me.)
That's ok, was just pushing a little bit :) thanks for sticking with me.
is doubt: can it happen ? will it ? how ? by way of (this) practice ? by grace ? and so on
And when those doubting thoughts arise, can they be seen to be just thoughts?

Those doubting thoughts seem to be saying that it isn't clear there is no such thing as a separate self. But looking right now again at experience, what does that say? And which is more reliable?
.i’d be done with my story, self and other judgment,
If Stephane/I IS story about self, other and judgements, then what could 'be done with it?'
Is there any control about those thoughts and images arising?
Can sounds be stopped from happenning? colours? tastes?
Are these thoughts any different?
I’d could be always et forever content, enjoying the union with the uniververse
ok so these ideas could be written as: 'painful or unpleasant emotions or sensations will never arise again'.
Again, is there control over those sensations more than the wind, rain, loud noises?
What if they continue to arise? Would that be a problem?
Whose proble]m would that be?

secondly 'enjoying union with the universe'
So this thought is saying 'there is currently separation with the universe that will end'.
Is that accurate? This is the core of what we have been looking at in these experiments? Is there actually any evidence of anything existing that is 'separate from the universe' in the first place?
Later I’d like to share with other people so they cold get rid of their suffering.
So is this what is hoped for with this process? To get rid of suffering? What do you mean exactly by 'suffering' (not what spiritual teachings say that word is, but what is happening right now that shouldn't be or should stop)
May be I’d have some supernatural siddis and I’d say “ oh! those were true!”
If unusual things started happening then so what? would those new perceptions/abilities belong to anything?
And if none of that happenned, if all this remained just as mundane and utterly ordinary as it is now, would that be ok?

I wouldn’t care about anything anymore I’d loose my job / possessions, my girlfriend would go away, no friends left
Ok so this is a dear rather than an expectation. Good to notice this.
Let's talk about possesion.
'my job'
'my possessions'
'my girlfriend'
'my friends'

Take a look at this idea 'mine'.
Take a look say at you tv, or motorbike that got damaged.
What really makes it 'yours' in the first place?
And what 'you' is here that it belongs to?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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stephaneHKG2015
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:35 pm

You mentioned at one point a feeling of something inside the head looking out. Is that still the case? tell me more about that, what is that experience constructed out of? particular sensations. Is it like this image?

Not my current experience. What I noticed recently was that my eyes were acting “on their own”, focusing on different objects / places - without any previous volition or control (at the last concert for instance). I couldn’t access the image you posted by the way.

Are there really any actual boundaries there at all? Or is that stuff 'added on' by thoughts and images?

I’ve learned: this a short pants, this is one my leg, that’s a sofa etc. 1+1=2. But looking at what’s actually going on, it feels much more like a bundle of experiences (visual, tactile, etc).

Did you watch the 'rubber hand illusion' video?

Yes I did. Reminded me of the phantom limb experience.

what about those raw sensations only, are saying or communicating anything about 'hand', let alone 'my hand'?
What about those raw sensations only are saying anything about location, or shape or a hand, or size? Let me know what is found.

the image didn’t last when I had my eyes closed.
No raw sensations couldn’t be recognized as belonging to (my) hand. No shape, size, color couldn’t be found. Location feels like “somewhere down there”, quite unclear.

After checking this it might be useful to ask the question again 'Where is Stephane right now?' and see what is found.

Useful tip. I’ll report what is seen. As you’ve suggested, I’ll take some time tomorrow to look at the second stuff separately. Thanks.

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stephaneHKG2015
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:12 pm

Those doubting thoughts seem to be saying that it isn't clear there is no such thing as a separate self. But looking right now again at experience, what does that say? And which is more reliable?

Direct experience is more reliable than belief. It is seen that thoughts with different contents (among them, doubts) are occurring and vanishing.

If Stephane/I IS story about self, other and judgements, then what could 'be done with it?'
Is there any control about those thoughts and images arising?
Can sounds be stopped from happenning? colours? tastes?
Are these thoughts any different?


I see the illusion of control, as if it’s possible to choose what is going to happen next.
The idea of the end of the “I story” is just one more thought.

'painful or unpleasant emotions or sensations will never arise again'.
Again, is there control over those sensations more than the wind, rain, loud noises?
What if they continue to arise? Would that be a problem?
Whose problem would that be?


That’s the illusion of control at work again. Fear of unpleasant / painful sensations: “if that happens, I could do that, that would work etc.”. It feels like control can / has to be done, except that what really occurs can’t be picked up ultimately.

secondly 'enjoying union with the universe'
So this thought is saying 'there is currently separation with the universe that will end'.Is that accurate? This is the core of what we have been looking at in these experiments? Is there actually any evidence of anything existing that is 'separate from the universe' in the first place?


In direct experience, the difference between “united” or “separated” can’t be found except as thoughts.

So is this what is hoped for with this process? To get rid of suffering? What do you mean exactly by 'suffering' (not what spiritual teachings say that word is, but what is happening right now that shouldn't be or should stop)

Suffering = the contrast between reality and thoughts about reality. eg: this image of my face vs I don’t like this image. In the present moment, suffering can’t be seen, only this bulge of different sensations / images / thoughts etc. that can be (un)pleasant.

If unusual things started happening then so what? would those new perceptions/abilities belong to anything?
And if none of that happened, if all this remained just as mundane and utterly ordinary as it is now, would that be ok?


I guess that new perceptions would only be what they can be: new perceptions of the ongoing experience.

Take a look at this idea 'mine'.
Take a look say at you tv, or motorbike that got damaged.
What really makes it 'yours' in the first place?
And what 'you' is here that it belongs to?


I’d say “relationship”: there’s a relationship between this (computer, motorbike,..) and “I”, which presupposes that there’s a separate ‘I” and the world. So back to the beginning…Can’t see farther tonight even though it’d right here…

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:33 pm

Sorry for any delay, i don't seem to be getting notifications you have replied at the moment. i will look into that.
I’ve learned: this a short pants, this is one my leg, that’s a sofa etc. 1+1=2. But looking at what’s actually going on, it feels much more like a bundle of experiences (visual, tactile, etc).
Yes, thoughts label, categorise and make a narrative out of the raw experience. This is simply about seeing what is there in the experience itself, and what is not.
the image didn’t last when I had my eyes closed.
No raw sensations couldn’t be recognized as belonging to (my) hand. No shape, size, color couldn’t be found. Location feels like “somewhere down there”, quite unclear.
Nice looking. Try this same exercise with 'the whole body' maybe looking in the mirror again then closing the eyes and seeing if the raw sensations are saying anything about 'my body'.
'Where is Stephane right now?' and see what is found.

Useful tip. I’ll report what is seen.
So after looking at that, what response comes up to that question?
Direct experience is more reliable than belief. It is seen that thoughts with different contents (among them, doubts) are occurring and vanishing.
Ok. So so far in our investigation has such a thing as an inherently existing separate self been found in direct experience? Or just thoughts about such a thing?

The idea of the end of the “I story” is just one more thought.
yes. Simple as that.
Fear of unpleasant / painful sensations: “if that happens, I could do that, that would work etc.”. It feels like control can / has to be done, except that what really occurs can’t be picked up ultimately.
So the key question here when these fearful thoughts arise about unpleasant/painful sensations is:

Is there anything separate to those sensations that is feeling them, 'a sufferer' ?


In direct experience, the difference between “united” or “separated” can’t be found except as thoughts.
Wow- How does it feel to understand the whole of 'non-duality'? ;) it's as mingbogglingly simple as that.
Suffering = the contrast between reality and thoughts about reality. eg: this image of my face vs I don’t like this image. In the present moment, suffering can’t be seen, only this bulge of different sensations / images / thoughts etc. that can be (un)pleasant.
yes unpleasant sensations and thoughts interpreting them...which we've already examined can't be stopped, only seen clearly for what they are.

I’d say “relationship”: there’s a relationship between this (computer, motorbike,..) and “I”, which presupposes that there’s a separate ‘I” and the world. So back to the beginning…Can’t see farther tonight even though it’d right here…
Ok, there was a lot to look at here. Possession is a whole aspect to this, and it merits some careful looking. take your time.

Sit in front of the objects and see if this apparent 'relationship' is something that exists in the experience itself, or just in ideas. What is found? If it is part of the experience describe to me what is the experience of this 'relationship' that makes this computer 'mine' and the one in the shop window 'not mine'.
And yes indeed, what is the current experience of this 'i' that is owning that object?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:12 pm

How is it all going?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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stephaneHKG2015
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:36 pm

Hi Hannah,

rather busy lately. Had to look, yes, but for a new appartement this time. So I'll post a reply a bit later tomorrow. I've noticed that meditation feels sort of difficult lately. Something like: the thought " Now i'll direct my attention to my breath and so on" feels artificial / like an effort. Not too sure what to make with that. Anyway i'll write again soon.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 pm

Remember looking at these questions requires no specific state of consciousness, conditions or large amounts of time.

About the meditation, why not 'just sit' and look at what is arising in experience?

I look forward hearing the answers to my last questions soon. Or if it is recognised there is fear (which may come out as discomfort, boredom or evasion) happening- then bring that here as well so we can look at the nature of that together.

x
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 5:04 am

Try this same exercise with 'the whole body' maybe looking in the mirror again then closing the eyes and seeing if the raw sensations are saying anything about 'my body'.

I saw an image in front of me; it disappeared when I closed my eyes. And then a succession of sensations, other images, thoughts, sounds…What about the “my” ?
It’s seen as a convention to describe THESE sensations that are occurring now.

Where is Stephane right now?' and see what is found.

What is found are thoughts about Stephane only. So the question could become: when is Stephane ? When those thoughts (with this related content) happen.

Ok. So so far in our investigation has such a thing as an inherently existing separate self been found in direct experience? Or just thoughts about such a thing?

It’s getting clearer and clearer that only different thoughts / with a different content are happening and disappearing. No entity such as the thinker can be found, just thinking.

So the key question here when these fearful thoughts arise about unpleasant/painful sensations is:
Is there anything separate to those sensations that is feeling them, 'a sufferer' ?


I’ve had migraines for decades (which contributed to bring me on this ”path”).It has eased now. My experience in intense or moderate pain is that there’s only pain and thoughts about it. The sufferer is only a part of a story that appears in thoughts.

In direct experience, the difference between “united” or “separated” can’t be found except as thoughts.
Wow- How does it feel to understand the whole of 'non-duality'? ;) it's as mingbogglingly simple as that.


It’s ridiculously simple. Is that all there is ? “doubt arising”…

Sit in front of the objects and see if this apparent 'relationship' is something that exists in the experience itself, or just in ideas. What is found?

It’s clear that this “special relationship” is only an idea, a thought. “My” might also reflect a feeling of “possessing” or “ownership” that is felt when there’s a thought about a certain object / person.

If it is part of the experience describe to me what is the experience of this 'relationship' that makes this computer 'mine' and the one in the shop window 'not mine'.

By way of contrast, the one in the shop window is seen as having a different quality to it; feels like “wanting” “not wanting” so to say. So different feelings and thoughts are occurring along with different objects and people.

Or if it is recognised there is fear (which may come out as discomfort, boredom or evasion) happening- then bring that here as well so we can look at the nature of that together.

Discomfort nor boredom are felt. Feels more like evasion. I notice that mediation has not occurred for a week but time was spent more on movies, cooking and other entertainments. There’s also a feeling of loss of control, realizing things are occurring on their own accord without my permission. So sometimes there’s some looking (when I sit to answer your questions) but most of the time no (unless I read some of the stuff I’ve printed out from our exchanges).

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:23 pm

Lovely clear answers thank you
It’s clear that this “special relationship” is only an idea, a thought. “My” might also reflect a feeling of “possessing” or “ownership” that is felt when there’s a thought about a certain object / person.

If it is part of the experience describe to me what is the experience of this 'relationship' that makes this computer 'mine' and the one in the shop window 'not mine'.

By way of contrast, the one in the shop window is seen as having a different quality to it; feels like “wanting” “not wanting” so to say. So different feelings and thoughts are occurring along with different objects and people.
Could you say any more about the raw feelings and thoughts being described here as 'wanting' or 'mine'?
I notice that mediation has not occurred for a week but time was spent more on movies, cooking and other entertainments.
Is that a problem?
There’s also a feeling of loss of control, realizing things are occurring on their own accord without my permission.
When this arises please ask and tell me what comes up to these questions-

'what has actually been lost? Was there ever any real control going on?'


And 'what is here that could give 'permission' to life to look a certain way?'



So let me ask at this point, can it be said with a confident 'yes' that the illusion of a separate self has been seen through?

xx
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Wed Nov 04, 2015 5:05 pm

Could you say any more about the raw feelings and thoughts being described here as 'wanting' or 'mine'?

Wanting (like having that cake) feels like a constriction, a sense of tension in the body with some focusing on the so called object. Same as “mine” (piece of bread let’s say): feels like I cant let it go. The sense “owning” feels sometimes like this (thing, person) is a part of the “I, me” so it has to be controlled/ protected/ not letting go of.

I notice that mediation has not occurred for a week but time was spent more on movies, cooking and other entertainments.
Is that a problem?

Well, no. I feel like there’s almost no difference between formal meditation and quietly sitting on a sofa.

When this arises please ask and tell me what comes up to these questions-
'what has actually been lost? Was there ever any real control going on?'


The sense of control has diminished: thinking the right thought, saying the right word, doing the right thing etc. Not so much a loss, rather a relief from a burden…
So no more or less control now than before but more clarity about this delusion.

And 'what is here that could give 'permission' to life to look a certain way?'

Well, the controller cannot be found. What the about the habit of controlling?
Is that real and operating or just another thought arising with certain body sensations (tightness, tension)?

So let me ask at this point, can it be said with a confident 'yes' that the illusion of a separate self has been seen through?

Confident? No. Feels more like glimpses through the mist…

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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Wed Nov 04, 2015 8:02 pm

Ok, there is no rush here, but bear in mind things are usually much simpler than thoughts make out.
Wanting (like having that cake) feels like a constriction, a sense of tension in the body
Good
Same as “mine”
YES
I encourage really looking at again and again and getting intimately familiar with those raw sensations. They are key to how the illusion manifests.
feels like I cant let it go.
thats not a feeling, that's the idea associated with the constricted/tension feeling
'I can't let it go'.
'that's mine'

Can the difference be clearly seen?
The sense “owning” feels sometimes like this (thing, person) is a part of the “I, me” so it has to be controlled/ protected/ not letting go of.
Part of what 'i/me' exactly?

Take a fresh look at the above dynamic. Is there anything more going there than certain sensations/feelings and ideas about that?
So no more or less control now than before but more clarity about this delusion.
Cool.
Well, the controller cannot be found.
Yes.
What the about the habit of controlling?
Is that real and operating or just another thought arising with certain body sensations (tightness, tension)?
I love these great questions you are asking! :)
So take a look and tell me what's found out about that...
Confident? No. Feels more like glimpses through the mist…
Ok. Firstly, what is 'the mist? describe in more simple terms what that experience of 'the mist' is made of/appears as.

If I ask you 'is there a sabre tooth tiger in the room right now'?
How confident would your answer be?
If I then put pictures of sabre tooth tigers in front of you and played some scary roaring noises, would you still be able to give a confident answer to that question?

So if i ask 'is there a separate self in the room right now?'
Is that process any different?

I think we need to take a look at the nature of time.
What are the words 'past' and 'future' pointing to?
Is there any current experience of 'past or 'future'? How is that appearing?

When and where is the only place looking at the illusion of self can happen?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)

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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby stephaneHKG2015 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 1:09 pm

thats not a feeling, that's the idea associated with the constricted/tension feeling
'I can't let it go'.
'that's mine'
Can the difference be clearly seen?

Yes, 2 different realms when they are closely looked at; the thought is occurring just after the sensation (may be before ?).

The sense “owning” feels sometimes like this (thing, person) is a part of the “I, me” so it has to be controlled/ protected/ not letting go of.
Part of what 'i/me' exactly?
Take a fresh look at the above dynamic. Is there anything more going there than certain sensations/feelings and ideas about that?


MY motorbike in terms of raw experience is only a bunch of ideas / thoughts + some constricted / (un)pleasant sensations – depending on when the idea of “my bike” occurs.

What about the habit of controlling?
Is that real and operating or just another thought arising with certain body sensations (tightness, tension)?


From moment to moment experience (by that I mean in this very moment), the “habit” can’t be found; what is seen is a thought / idea: “ oh, I’m trying to control this and that again... as usual. It will never end and so on” (more a sequence of thoughts actually…).

Ok. Firstly, what is 'the mist? describe in more simple terms what that experience of 'the mist' is made of/appears as.

“the mist”: the myriad of experiences during wake up (and sleeping) time. The never-ending succession of thoughts/ sensations/ ideas / feelings (I first noticed that as a 6-7-8 year old boy one night in my bed: the following day, I asked my mum: do you ever stop thinking?).

If I ask you 'is there a sabre tooth tiger in the room right now'?
How confident would your answer be?
If I then put pictures of sabre tooth tigers in front of you and played some scary roaring noises, would you still be able to give a confident answer to that question?
So if i ask 'is there a separate self in the room right now?'
Is that process any different?


Ok, I cant find a sabre tooth tiger in the room 1. because from the information I can gather on the subject they are extinct 2. because I can search the room and find none.
In regards to a separate self 1. information about that is not consistent 2. Neither can I find one here. Wait: there’s a but. A thought occurs: “It doesn’t mean that because I can’t find one, there is none”. Just a thought after all like this one “a separate self is not found”.

What are the words 'past' and 'future' pointing to?
Is there any current experience of 'past or 'future'? How is that appearing?


No actual experience of past and future except as thoughts / ideas and shortly after certain sensations / feelings which seem associated.

When and where is the only place looking at the illusion of self can happen?

Here and now. The illusion is perpetuating because the content of the thought « me, myself, I » is believed. But what is believing? Feeling a special sensation accompanying a certain thought? Can’t see any further.

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Hannah B-T
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Re: Seeing (thru) the ego

Postby Hannah B-T » Thu Nov 05, 2015 11:23 pm

MY motorbike in terms of raw experience is only a bunch of ideas / thoughts + some constricted / (un)pleasant sensations – depending on when the idea of “my bike” occurs.
Yes.
From moment to moment experience (by that I mean in this very moment)
When i'm asking these questions that's the only place i'm expecting a report from, because that's the only place that isn't pure imagination :)
the “habit” can’t be found; what is seen is a thought / idea: “ oh, I’m trying to control this and that again... as usual. It will never end and so on” (more a sequence of thoughts actually…).

And can that thought 'i'm trying to control this again' actually control anything?

“the mist”: the myriad of experiences during wake up (and sleeping) time. The never-ending succession of thoughts/ sensations/ ideas / feelings (I first noticed that as a 6-7-8 year old boy one night in my bed: the following day, I asked my mum: do you ever stop thinking?).
Ok, so don't ask mum, ask this experience as you go through the day, does this chatter of thoughts ever stop? even for a moment? What about when engrossed in an activity? when asleep?

'Mist' says something about 'unclear' to me. But aren't all those thoughts, sensations,feelings very clear when they are hapenning?
In regards to a separate self 1. information about that is not consistent
I don't understand this statement. Please explain further- do you mean when looking sometimes information is found that shows a separate self? Or not?
2. Neither can I find one here.
ok. so no sabre tooth tiger. No self found either.

A thought occurs: “It doesn’t mean that because I can’t find one, there is none”.

ok...It doesn't mean that because a sabre tooth tiger isn't found here now, there is none.
What would you say to me if I gave you this argument?

is it possible to see something that was never there in the first place?
No actual experience of past and future except as thoughts / ideas and shortly after certain sensations / feelings which seem associated.
Good.
Now bring to mind a memory, a very clear memory. your first kiss, being in physical danger...really picture it vividly.

Now bring to mind the best screen kiss you ever saw, and the best action movie scene, things blowing up.

Talk me through if anything makes one of those option more 'real' or 'true' than the other?
The illusion is perpetuating because the content of the thought « me, myself, I » is believed. But what is believing? Feeling a special sensation accompanying a certain thought? Can’t see any further.
Another great question. Take a good look at that and tell me what's found.
Is there a 'believer' of thoughts?
Are there keys in your pocket? Is the sky blue? Is there an 'i, a self?' LOOK! :)


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