Blackbirds thread

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:49 pm

Hi Kevin
What control --substantial or insubstantial--does a 'me' have over thought?
It feels like those words are read, so there is reading, focusing on the question, then random thoughts volleying around for an answer. So in this moment no 'me' controlling thought - but still feels like there is an illusionary confused something searching around for an existence that can't be found when looking.

I'll keep reflecting on this question over the weekend, and letting go of the story...

with kindness

Blackbird

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KevinD
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:32 am

Keep looking.
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Mon Oct 26, 2015 8:04 pm

Hi Kevin
What control --substantial or insubstantial--does a 'me' have over thought?
Keep looking.
I spent time looking over the weekend during meditation especially and it became obvious that there is no me in control of thought. Thinking arises quite randomly as a process, just like breathing and body sensations that are happening all the time. There are periods of focusing, directing, exploring, learning and inspiration and a mind/organism seems to be working at understanding...

With Kindness

Blackbird

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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:20 pm

Excellent, Blackbird,
Good answers.

Let's take a look at the self as it relates to the body.

Solely from direct experience:

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?


Nice work and welcome home,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:30 am

Hi Kevin
Solely from direct experience:

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?
The word body is just another label for tactile and kinesthetic sensations.

Tactile and kinesthetic sensations, and thinking are the continuous activities that come under the umbrella/word body.

Names and labels are created to simplify the language of describing thinking and sensations which are the activities of living..I can see why - it's awfully complex without them!

Not quite home - starting to wonder what home is too...

Thanks.

With kindness

Blackbird

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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Tue Oct 27, 2015 4:08 pm

Hi Blackbird,

Indeed, communication would be difficult without labels.

At this point can you say with a huge yes that the separate self is, and always has been, nothing but an illusion?

Keep up the good work,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:43 pm

Hi Kevin
At this point can you say with a huge yes that the separate self is, and always has been, nothing but an illusion?
I can say yes but it doesn't feel like a huge yes. It's more like seeing through an illusion but still having remnants of mist, or habitual patterns and ways of being hanging around ready to cloud my vision at the earliest opportunity.

With kindness

Blackbird

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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Tue Oct 27, 2015 7:07 pm

Hi Blackbird,

That's fear that anticipates you will fall back into the dream.
The belief in a separate self is a little like the belief in Santa Clause. How likely are you to drop into that fantasy?


Let's take a look at what we've examined so far.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?


Best,
Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:41 pm

Hi Kevin
With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?
Processes of ever changing thinking, emotions, sensations, movement, habitual patterns, living
What experiences?
Experiences arise out of thinking, choices and actions unfolding
What thinks?
Mind stream with no boundaries
What does?
Life living through processes of ever changing thinking, emotions, sensations, movement, habitual patterns
What is aware?
Mind in state of awareness - or just awareness

I still like playing the game of Santa Claus and other mythic figures for the qualities and aspirations they reflect even though I know the figures themselves aren't real. The magic they evoke inspires.

With Kindness

Blackbird

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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Wed Oct 28, 2015 6:22 am

Great stuff, Blackbird.

I'd like to run some questions by you before asking some colleagues to review this thread.
Please give specifics to each question.
Remember, the observing should come from your own direct experience.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Best,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:18 am

Hi Kevin
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


Not that I can find when I look from my direct experience. If I can't find it when I look now - it's never been there. It is a fabrication/story/a made up character.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self is seeing something central that is in control of thoughts, actions, decision making and experience. Something central that experiences life events personally and separately from other peoples experience. It starts with the labels of names and gender and is solidified by identifying/defining a separate self within a culture or through attaching/grasping to roles and relationships, that is responsible for every thought, word, action of body and mind. The illusion clouds the flow of living, being with what is happening in each moment, veils the arising and falling away of experience, creates obstacles/distractions away from the natural course of living, believes that it is independent of other life forms and can manipulate circumstances for it's own benefit and create the conditions for lasting happiness. Suffers and remains blind when life doesn't work out the way it wants, and keeps holding to the illusion through fear of oblivion, loss of purpose or revealing the great lie that there is anything substantial at all to hold to.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Like I already knew but was going along with the game of being a separate me because I couldn't quite get how to unstick from the illusion of a separate self. I'm looking more closely, easily, continuously at every day thinking/actions/reactions of body and mind, seeing the arising and falling away more clearly, noticing the flowing, changing nature of thinking and experience. Being more aware that there is no me in central control of life. Noticing in particular the automatic, naturally tactile, kinesthetic unfolding of body movements and processes and how they are happening without a me thinking them into being or in charge. Noticing the tumbling, cascading nature of thinking, feeling, emotions occurring in relationship to events unfolding, or not, without a me in central control. Noticing how experience arises out of conditions, habitual patterns and behaviours that are able to change and transform, that aren't anchored or fixed or controlled by a central power/me. Tasting the freedom and lightness that comes with being in direct experience unfolding.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
The sustained direction of looking and exploring in my direct experience, especially body movements and noticing that there is no separate "I' or 'me' in control of them. Body movement and processes just unfolding naturally with an intelligence that is not me, just life flowing through and knowing intrinsically what to do.
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
It feels like decision and intention arise from previous conditions that have arrived at a particular point of awareness in consciousness (?) where choice can be made to direct/create conditions to come to a degree (intentionality?). Then life carryies on and unfolds as a result of choices/decisions made to a certain degree but ultimately there is no control after intention is set. Life may go in a particular direction dependent on decisions and choices made at a moment in time or something random can come in and change the direction of events. Awareness can set an intention/choice in motion and that is what I'm (?) responsible for and that's all - to be as aware and skillful as I can and accept life's unfolding. For example making the decision to do DP, hoping to see more clearly through the illusion of self, not really knowing how that will unfold ultimately but being open to what arises as a result of intention/decision/choices made.
6) Anything to add?
When I pick it all to pieces I am 'thinking' I get it, but still thinking I need further direction to really embody/know it fully, something more to help with 'not falling back'. Would appreciate any guidance to keep exploring further.

Thanks for your patience and I look forward to your response.

With Kindness

Blackbird

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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:36 am

Thank you, Blackbird,

Good answers.

Just a bit of housekeeping here:
It feels like decision and intention arise from previous conditions that have arrived at a particular point of awareness in consciousness (?) where choice can be made to direct/create conditions to come to a degree (intentionality?).
What is making choices?


Awareness can set an intention/choice in motion and that is what I'm (?) responsible for and that's all - to be as aware and skillful as I can and accept life's unfolding.
How is it that awareness is making choices or intentions?

When I pick it all to pieces I am 'thinking' I get it, but still thinking I need further direction to really embody/know it fully, something more to help with 'not falling back'. Would appreciate any guidance to keep exploring further.
Certainly, what guidance do you think you need?

Best,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:07 am

Hi Kevin
What is making choices?
I honestly don't know right now. I'm obviously getting confused about how choice comes into being if there is nothing to make it.
How is it that awareness is making choices or intentions?
I guess pure awareness doesn't but I don't know how to explain it any other way.
Certainly, what guidance do you think you need?
See above...

With Kindness

Blackbird

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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby KevinD » Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:13 pm

Hi Blackbird,

No worries, you're doing great.

Confusion is normal, and often a good sign. It can be an indication we are being shaken out of our old thinking patterns.
I honestly don't know right now. I'm obviously getting confused about how choice comes into being if there is nothing to make it.
Keep looking.
Does choice really exist on any level, or is that a nice story we tell ourselves?
Could it be that we are reacting to external and internal stimuli and make up the story that there was some choice involved?
Don't take my word for it, keep looking.


This isn't a race, take your time.
Stay in touch daily, but your answers might not come that quickly.

Best,

Kevin
"Don't ask the mind to confirm what is beyond the mind. Direct experience is the only valid confirmation."
~Nisargadatta Maharaj

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blackbird
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Re: Blackbirds thread

Postby blackbird » Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:22 am

Hi Kevin

Thanks for your reassurance and I'm glad it's not a race.
Keep looking.
Does choice really exist on any level, or is that a nice story we tell ourselves?
Could it be that we are reacting to external and internal stimuli and make up the story that there was some choice involved?
Don't take my word for it, keep looking.
When I was out walking this morning I kept looking for the point where choice was made and what if anything was making it. I could see that what you wrote made sense, that choice was just a reacting to external and internal stimuli. It seemed like some of the reactions were either to avoid an outside danger or discomfort, like rain pouring off shop roofs onto the street, or avoiding cars when crossing the road, or reacting with either attraction to/or aversion from what was seen. That's one level where I can see the story. It also seemed like the reactions arose from an innate protectiveness of life living through this body and a preference towards what felt safe or pleasant. Apart from that I'm still confused about what seems like sometimes very tangible initial premeditated intentions and seemingly non-random thoughts and where/how they arise.

I'll keep looking.

Thanks.

Blackbird


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