Requesting A Guide

[itstopshere]

Achal, can you please look at my post from Thursday 24 sept 10:13 pm and reply to that.
We are not trying to get rid of thoughts here. Please follow my guiding questions :)

[ach07]

I suggest you try this again, without any thinking. Are you imposing a "feeling of self", or is there really a "feeling of self"?

I am not able to understand. I am not deliberately imposing anything. It's just happening. I don't know if I can control it.

No, I asked for characteristics of self. If the self exists, how does it look, taste, smell, feel, or sound?

It doesn't have any shape, smell, taste or sound. It is very vague. It seems difficult to look at it or feel it.

"I" moved my arm, "I" thought about the source.
What is this "I" you keep talking about? (answer from your experience, not from thought)

When I move my arm, I am aware that the arm is moved. I am able to move it as per my will (that is what the experience seems to me).
I am really not able to grasp this "I". How can I explain it without thinking? Let's say I have an experience of I, I will have to think about what that experience is, no? Sorry, I am totally confused here

Where is this self?
And how does it take control?

I am not able to trace this self, I can not locate it.
It seems to guide the brain. When I come back from the "lost in thought state" , to the present, self seems to be guiding my brain.

[itstopshere]

Alright. We investigate here through direct experience. That is, seeing, hearing, feeling, touching, tasting.
When I want to know if my keys are in my pocket, I feel my pocket, and yes! there they are.
But how about "I"? We live our lives from the assumption of I existing, but look, feel, smell, where is it? Do we even know what we are looking for, when we search for it?

You've experienced that thoughts just come. When you say you try to be mindful, when you try to watch your thoughts or know what your next thought is going to be, who is it that is watching? Is watching not just happening? Could you have predicted that you would be watching? And if you could, could you have predicted that you would predict the watching?

Try this: look at your hand. It's "your" hand. turn it. to the palm, and back to the back of the hand, and back to the palm again, and back to the back of the hand. Keep turning it back and forth, observing closely. Are you really deciding when to move the hand? Try not to think, just observe.

[ach07]

When I want to know if my keys are in my pocket, I feel my pocket, and yes! there they are.
But how about "I"? We live our lives from the assumption of I existing, but look, feel, smell, where is it? Do we even know what we are looking for, when we search for it?[/quote]
Yeah that is true. This "I" is something weird and spooky. We can't find it. Also aren't we looking "I" with the help of "I"? This will never be possible, right?

You've experienced that thoughts just come. When you say you try to be mindful, when you try to watch your thoughts or know what your next thought is going to be, who is it that is watching? Is watching not just happening? Could you have predicted that you would be watching? And if you could, could you have predicted that you would predict the watching?
Yes, watching is also just happening. I can not find this "I", that is supposed to the watching.
No, I couldn't predict. First I get into the state of watching, then the thought comes(including "I", which keeps on posing questions and analyzing and going into the loop) and make a mess of everything.

Try this: look at your hand. It's "your" hand. turn it. to the palm, and back to the back of the hand, and back to the palm again, and back to the back of the hand. Keep turning it back and forth, observing closely. Are you really deciding when to move the hand? Try not to think, just observe.

When I just observe it, it sometimes feel like it is dancing to its own rhythm and I am just a mere spectator. It feels weird. Not able to decide whether I am moving it or I am just claiming its movement after it has just moved.

[ach07]

When I want to know if my keys are in my pocket, I feel my pocket, and yes! there they are.
But how about "I"? We live our lives from the assumption of I existing, but look, feel, smell, where is it? Do we even know what we are looking for, when we search for it?

Yeah that is true. This "I" is something weird and spooky. We can't find it. Also aren't we looking "I" with the help of "I"? This will never be possible, right?

You've experienced that thoughts just come. When you say you try to be mindful, when you try to watch your thoughts or know what your next thought is going to be, who is it that is watching? Is watching not just happening? Could you have predicted that you would be watching? And if you could, could you have predicted that you would predict the watching?

Yes, watching is also just happening. I can not find this "I", that is supposed to the watching.
No, I couldn't predict. First I get into the state of watching, then the thought comes(including "I", which keeps on posing questions and analyzing and going into the loop) and make a mess of everything.

Try this: look at your hand. It's "your" hand. turn it. to the palm, and back to the back of the hand, and back to the palm again, and back to the back of the hand. Keep turning it back and forth, observing closely. Are you really deciding when to move the hand? Try not to think, just observe.

When I just observe it, it sometimes feel like it is dancing to its own rhythm and I am just a mere spectator. It feels weird. Not able to decide whether I am moving it or I am just claiming its movement after it has just moved.

[itstopshere]

Cool.

Also aren't we looking "I" with the help of "I"?

Are we? How can "I" help?
What "I" could help?
If you were to describe what happens when you look, what would you say?

...and make a mess of everything.

Is that actually possible?
Who would make a mess?
What would a mess be? Who defines what a mess is, and what is 'good'?

When I just observe it, it sometimes feel like it is dancing to its own rhythm and I am just a mere spectator. It feels weird. Not able to decide whether I am moving it or I am just claiming its movement after it has just moved.

Look closer. Keep looking. All day, as often as you can muster. And don't beat yourself up when you forget, just look again.

[ach07]

Are we? How can "I" help?

Well I am not able to separate this "I" from the experience. How can the experience not have an observer? What does it mean? How is it even possible? I am sorry I know I am not supposed to ask questions, but I couldn't help.
It is not helping definitely. It is making the problem bigger.

If you were to describe what happens when you look, what would you say?

It is very vague. I can not certainly say this happens or that happens. I am not sure what to look and how to look. So there is a lot of confusion in this sense.

...and make a mess of everything.
Is that actually possible?
Who would make a mess?
What would a mess be? Who defines what a mess is, and what is 'good'?

Yes , the experience is pure and thoughts pollute it. They don't let the experience to happen. They are out of control. Well I guess, things are not working according to the self, and it is saying it's bad/

[itstopshere]

Aren't thoughts just a happening too? Do we need to be invested in thoughts and fight them, or can thoughts pass by, just like your stomach might grumble?

How can the experience not have an observer?

Irrelevant question. The question is: can you find an observer.
Imagine people 2000 years ago: how can this world exist without a god? How is that possible?
What we can imagine, is not relevant. What is, is.

Sit for a moment, doing nothing. Something will happen. You will scratch an itch, you will think something, and it will happen before you are even aware it happens. Thoughts will take ownership after it happens. Can you see that happening? Observe it. Funny thing; we have this thing in the west called mindfulness. The original mindfulness as practiced in buddhism eventually led you to observe the reality of happening, without self. Now mindfulness is just about being more aware, or something like that. E.g. we are starting to fight our thoughts. That's not what mindfulness was about. The whole point of zen training wasn't to rid themselves of thoughts, but to see that it is impossible (although surely, in a sense, "you can become more calm" / "develop a quieter mind", BUT, it's irrelevant!). And now I explained to much, so you will have to do more observation to compensate for me talking :-)

[ach07]

Namaste Ricardo,

Aren't thoughts just a happening too? Do we need to be invested in thoughts and fight them, or can thoughts pass by, just like your stomach might grumble?

Yeah, they are also just a happening. We can not fight to get rid of them. We can just observe them dancing around and they will shy away then :D

Sit for a moment, doing nothing. Something will happen. You will scratch an itch, you will think something, and it will happen before you are even aware it happens. Thoughts will take ownership after it happens. Can you see that happening? Observe it.

Yes, When I sit I sometimes feel like having no control and just watching. It is a good feeling. A shiver runs through the body. It feels cold like when you are about to get an important news.
Then thoughts come along trying to make a sense out of the situation. Analyzing it.

Funny thing; we have this thing in the west called mindfulness. The original mindfulness as practiced in buddhism eventually led you to observe the reality of happening, without self. Now mindfulness is just about being more aware, or something like that. E.g. we are starting to fight our thoughts. That's not what mindfulness was about. The whole point of zen training wasn't to rid themselves of thoughts, but to see that it is impossible (although surely, in a sense, "you can become more calm" / "develop a quieter mind", BUT, it's irrelevant!). And now I explained to much, so you will have to do more observation to compensate for me talking :-)

Yeah, sure I do. Need lots of looking. :)
As they say, you can not not pacify the ocean with an iron. It will only disturb it more. We don't need to pacify anything.

[ach07]

During daily activities, the experience I have when looking at the thoughts, looking at my presence is very much different from when I am not actively looking. Strange!

[itstopshere]

But is that true? Can we observe thoughts? Who observes thoughts? Don't answer intellectually, from knowing. Look every time I ask you a question. That's the idea. Even when you know what the answer is, just look, take your time.

When you turn your head, who turns the head?
When you hear something, who hears?
When you see something, who sees?
When you feel something, who feels?
When you reply to a question, who replies?
When you blink, who blinks?
When you take a walk outside -- notice the walking happening. Notice the legs moving. Don't interfere, just let it happen. See how no one is walking? Walking is happening. One leg moves, then the other, balancing perfectly, apparently going in a certain direction, but you don't need to consciously walk. Walking just happens.

You don't need to answer all these questions to me. You can see whether you do or don't. It's most important you answer them to yourself. Not intellectually, but by looking, observing, who no one doing the observing :)

[ach07]

When thoughts are observed, two different scenarios happen. One in which I am analyzing the thought. In it there are more thoughts. Thoughts about thoughts. Another is a different experience. It happened two times. Thoughts are seen as just thoughts. There was no control. Before I know it, my face my smiling. I don't know what it was. A different kind of sensation was there. Felt cold.

When you turn your head, who turns the head?
When you hear something, who hears?
When you see something, who sees?
When you feel something, who feels?
When you reply to a question, who replies?
When you blink, who blinks?
When you take a walk outside -- notice the walking happening. Notice the legs moving. Don't interfere, just let it happen. See how no one is walking? Walking is happening. One leg moves, then the other, balancing perfectly, apparently going in a certain direction, but you don't need to consciously walk. Walking just happens.

It is all just happening. Actions are happening. Labeling of things is happening. Thoughts are happening.
There are thoughts about everything. About everything that is experienced through my senses. Even the experience happening is stored in the brain with the help of thoughts about it.

[itstopshere]

Have you noticed how muscular tensions can make you feel like there is a 'you' for some reason? Often when we think, very small muscular tensions or feelings in the mouth area accompany the thoughts, or for example your facial muscles move (frowning, for instance). Do you see how this reinforces the sense of self? Check it :)

Another thing to do, is to spend a few moments during a day noticing noticing. What is this 'noticing'? Who is 'noticing'? What does 'noticing' actually mean?
Again, you don't have to fully explain it to me, but if you want to you can. These are mostly guiding questions in your discovery process.

Let me know what you find :)

[ach07]

Have you noticed how muscular tensions can make you feel like there is a 'you' for some reason? Often when we think, very small muscular tensions or feelings in the mouth area accompany the thoughts, or for example, your facial muscles move (frowning, for instance). Do you see how this reinforces the sense of self? Check it :)

Yes, the facial muscles move sometimes while thinking. They move as per the thought, for example, if thinking something happy, there will come a smile on the face. It creates a sense that I am the one who is thinking about those thoughts.

Another thing to do, is to spend a few moments during a day noticing noticing. What is this 'noticing'? Who is 'noticing'? What does 'noticing' actually mean?

Noticing is looking with pure honesty. Looking things the way they are. Looking at thoughts just the way they are without having an opinion about them.
There's an awareness presence which is looking everything. Everything that is happening inside as well as outside my brain, I can see through this awareness. I may not have a control on the thoughts but I can see them happening.

[itstopshere]

Aha, so you are saying "I" is awareness / consciousness, am I right?