Scratching the surface

[tupapa]

Is the answer you are looking formaybe in this?:
Noticing is a special kind of thought ( Once they are noticed, a thought emerges that creates the “self reference point” ), but they still are a kind of thought

Resting as awareness, being that in which all arises? Would you really say that is a kind of thought? How can a thought be aware of another thought?

Wouldn't you say that in order to be aware of thoughts, there must be something that isn't thought?

Just thoughts and ideas coming to mind, not really looking for anything.

And by the way: The self reference indeed is created, while life was doing extremely well without it, maybe even better.

I can´t seem to remember a time when there wasn´t an I :D

Were you ever aware of the fact that "I" only is there when thinking?

Sure, it´s only thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

Are there issues left you like to address?

Or is it your time for your last 6 questions now?

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

No more questions are coming up here,

Best wishes

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

If you have answered the last 6 questions, I will show that answers to the other guides to see if they have any additional questions. If they have, I will give them to you to answer.

After that you will be invited to our 'post-gate' Facebook and forum groups, where you could explore and discuss more if you like. The Gate is not the end, but a start. There is a whole community of others on Liberation Unleashed (on Facebook and on the forum), who have also seen through the idea of a separate self. Actually, there are several groups to join.

Here are the questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There isn´t, there are habitual thought patterns that have been created and enforced through conditioning. There never was a true self, there was just a sequence of thoughts that created a story of a self.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It starts every morning; sensation starts emerging in awareness, light comes through the eyes, along with concepts associated with whatever emerges in the visual field. At the same time, thoughts start appearing about what “I am supposed to do today”, “I will have for breakfast” “Did I shower last night?”.

All this starts happening and continues taking place throughout the day, with no intervention from a self.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like there is real freedom in breaking the spell of the self, it feels like whatever life brings is what is and there is potential to experience life with ease. It feels like, under this framework there is little potential for struggle, since by obliterating the self/free will/responsibility all that is left to do is to accept things as they come, fighting seems futile, since the only way things could be is how they are.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There wasn´t much resistance to the identification with thought or with the body. The struggle and resistance was present when tackling the last hiding spot of the self, awareness. It seemed as if the self could be awareness, there was a thought that the faculty of observing with the self.

The resistance was overcome once it was seen that even in awareness, knowing just happens with no knower.

This was the last bit that pushed me over, if the self can´t be seen in awareness; that in which all is happening, then there just isn´t anywhere else for it to be.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Once it is seen that thoughts are unauthored, they simply appear in consciousness and there is no control whatsoever over them, free will becomes an impossibility. Thoughts control our actions and they include our feelings, our desires and our Will, there is no free will because there is no thinker of thoughts. There is no control because there is no controller…

What makes things happen? How does it work?

No idea

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing, work ethic, morality, mental stability seems like it results mainly from parenting. IQ, health, hight, looks seem to be mostly genetically determined.

If I go to a good university and get good grades it is all a result of parenting, genetics and other conditions which escape my understanding.

Everything is happening due to an incomprehensible number of factors, the world is chaotic and nothing that happens to us is our responsibility. It would be foolish and egocentric to think that it is.

6) Anything to add?

Not for now


Best wishes,

Tupapa.

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

Here some questions from the other guides:

"There is no control because there is no controller…"

Can you pick up a cup un-controllably?

"all that is left to do is to accept things as they come"

What specifically, if anything, needs to be done to "accept things as they come?

"nothing that happens to us is our responsibility"

describe what do you do if you have a small hungry child on your hands.
Do you simply drop him since nothing is your responsibility?

"Everything is happening due to an incomprehensible number of factors, the world is chaotic and nothing that happens to us is our responsibility. It would be foolish and egocentric to think that it is."

is world chaotic? What is chaotic right now?
What would orderly world look like?
Is life happening to us, as if we are outside of life, being irresponsible of what life throws at us?

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

Can you pick up a cup un-controllably?

It seems like there are two ways in which one can pick up a cup;

1- You find out your spouse has been cheating on you with the milkman, in a fit of rage you grab the cup and launch it towards her head
2- In order to make a green tea, you open your cupboard and start gazing through the cups, there is deliberation and each cup brings memories to mind, eventually you make up your mind and pick up one cup for “x” reason.

In the first instance there is no control whatsoever. In the latter scenario, there is an appearance of control, since it seems like there is an ”I” that is deliberating and eventually making up its mind.

However, since it has been seen that thoughts simply appear in awareness, and there is no I there is no deliberator and no controller. Any feeling of control is an illusion.

What specifically, if anything, needs to be done to "accept things as they come?

Nothing, if there was something that needed to be done then it wouldn´t be acceptance.

describe what do you do if you have a small hungry child on your hands.
Do you simply drop him since nothing is your responsibility?

Since it has been established that there is no control, that everything is simply happening then there can be no true responsibility.

This doesn´t mean that morality and ethics, empathy and compassion are negated. They still play a pivotal role in how life is lived, and law and order are still needed. A murderer must still be locked in, in order to prevent further suffering to others, and one could say that in this context, he would be responsible/accountable for the crimes committed.

However, looking deep down, the murdered is simply a victim of his upbringing, his genetic makeup, the circumstances that surrounded him… There is no real responsibility since there wasn´t an entity, hiding within his body that chose any of the maladies that he encountered.

is world chaotic? What is chaotic right now?
What would orderly world look like?
Is life happening to us, as if we are outside of life, being irresponsible of what life throws at us?

Chaotic because there are so many variables that humans are unaware of, that shape experience and influence behaviour, it is all complex.
I can´t imagine what an orderly world would look like, I guess if it was orderly, it would imply I had some sort of omniscient understanding of how things operate, some god like quality.
It seems as if life is happening with us, not to us, and experience is constantly changing with us.

Best Wishes,

tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

Watch an octopus swim. See the elegant grace of movement, the inherent control of limbs to move, catch prey.
Does an octopus have a self controller?
Do you have a controller?
Does control require a controller?

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

No it doesn´t, I was refering to towards control as in a feeling of agency of the self and authorship over what life brings.

But I can see how in these examples the animals have control with no particular goal and presumably without thinking

Best wishes,

tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

What has changed and what hasn't in every day normal experience since you started this dialogue?

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

Not much, there appears to be a slight improvement in the use of the passive voice :D

Best wishes

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

There are 2 types of reactions to the subject of the illusion of a separate self.
1. "I understand what is meant the illusion of a separate self and think it is quite true."
2. "Holy cow. My whole life was based on a totally wrong beliefsystem. So glad I see that now!"

Which one applies to you?

I have a video I like you to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB2Itt5KQU8
Could you give me your reaction to that video?

Warmest regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus,

There are 2 types of reactions to the subject of the illusion of a separate self.
1. "I understand what is meant the illusion of a separate self and think it is quite true."
2. "Holy cow. My whole life was based on a totally wrong beliefsystem. So glad I see that now!"

Which one applies to you?

Number 2 applies. Only that in my case it has felt like a gradual realization as the path of spiritual enquiry has been traveled, fueled by curiosity. It hasn´t felt as a sudden realization.

I have a video I like you to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XB2Itt5KQU8
Could you give me your reaction to that video?

Warmest regards, Petrus

I watched it twice and find it interesting, however one thing really resonates.

When he mentions; That in which all is occuring and is always here, true security. That which is before thoughts arise..

When "that in wich all is happening" is experienced it really does bring an unshakable peace. However, not enough time is spent in that place throughout the day, thougths just have a habitual and ingrained tendency to capture awareness.

Best wishes

Tupapa

[Petrus]

Hi Tupapa,

When "that in wich all is happening" is experienced it really does bring an unshakable peace.

How could you possibly experience "that in which all is happening?"
If it could be experienced, it wouldnt be "that in which all is happening" anymore! It would an experience only.
Music you hear is not "that in which all is happening".
A tree you see is not "that in which all is happening".
The concept "that in which all is happening" you see is a concept that is experienced.
Can you see this?

However, not enough time is spent in that place throughout the day, thougths just have a habitual and ingrained tendency to capture awareness.

There is no such place existing that you are talking about to be visited.
How could it be visited? Where is it? Can you go by train?
It is the place in which ALL is happening, including every concept, thought or sensation.
The idea to have to spent time there also is a thought/belief/concept.

Furthermore: there is no thought that is capable of taking something, of capturing awareness.
A thought is experienced. No more than that. Period. Can you see that?

"Wouldn't you say that in order to be aware of thoughts, there must be something that isn't thought?"

Can you find this "something" in the direct experience, separate from the thought itself?
Or is it more like the thought and the awareness of it are one and the same? Where is the "awarer"?

Warm regards, Petrus

[tupapa]

Hi Petrus
Language is really hindering this exchange, there appears to be a remarkable disparity between what I am expressing and what you are interpreting.

Let’s remember that my answer was in relation to the video you shared, in which the man with the aesthetically appalling beard shares his view on direct experience.

How could you possibly experience "that in which all is happening?"
If it could be experienced, it wouldnt be "that in which all is happening" anymore! It would an experience only.

It feels like we are beating around the bush, if I cut to the chase I arrive here;

Paraphrasing from your video, Aprox. 5th minute into it;

“Experiencing directly whatever this is… the space in which all this is occurring, which is already always here for all of us….. this is true security… what is this before thought?”

This is the foundation of seeing thing for what they really are. All there really is is consciousness/awareness and its contents. The space in which all this is occurring, what is before thought, that which is always here, consciousness, awareness, it doesn't matter how we name it.

It is that place, that brings true peace, because it remains unchanged no matter what presents itself within it.

A thought is experienced. No more than that. Period. Can you see that?

Clearly.

Can you find this "something" in the direct experience, separate from the thought itself?
Or is it more like the thought and the awareness of it are one and the same? Where is the "awarer"?

All there is is consciosuness/direct experience and its contents. The thought appears in consciousness, the "awarer" is just another appearence in consciousness, but consciousness remains unchanged, no matter what presents itself within it.

Lets hope that made things clearer..

Best wishes,

Tupapa