Looking for a very patient guide!

[Tanya-D]

I'm hitting a brick wall here though Tanya. I can't get beyond the real sensation of there being a self behind the eyes, no matter how much I 'look'. I've been stuck at this point forever and I can't deny it. It really does feel like I am in my head looking out at the world.

How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’' that is behind the eyes? Write down all that comes up.

And while I'm being brutally honest, WE haven't really established that IT is before thinking. You've told me that IT is, but I, a) don't know what the hell IT is and b) still can't really see anything before thinking. Now I'm peeing on your bonfire. Sorry.

I thought this 'before thinking' was established as an intellectual knowing during our phone call based on the illustration I sent you in a private message? If not, my bad. IT is just a word to express Awareness, Life, God etc. If you want to give me a word that makes sense to you for us to use in our dialogue, then that would be helpful.

I tell you Tanya, this is all way too subtle and abstract for me. I've seen nothing, I've understood nothing. You're right, I'm incredibly frustrated right now and so bloody angry with myself for being so dense, despite your awesome patience and assistance. I'd throw the towel in, but I know I can't. Seeing THIS is all I'm interested in. It would be like trying to stop myself breathing. Sorry to rant on T.

Understood . . .Most of us have been there. Just keep looking until you don't need to look any longer. :) No one knows how long that will take.

There is no separate self at all in reality. No agent that is in charge, no manager, no watcher, no owner of life; all there is is life flowing freely as one movement. Watch, wait, notice, write- what comes up? Is there fear? Is there doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and turn away, something that says this is not working? Or maybe there is feeling of wow, joy, relief? Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down in writing. Let's see what is in the way now.

Catch you soon :)

T

[Badgerbob]

I'll tackle this tomorrow if I may Tanya. Crazy busy right now and I'd like to give this my full attention. Looks like good stuff! P.


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[Tanya-D]

No worries :)

Catch you soon

T

[Badgerbob]

I don't know if I can describe the sense of self that seems focused behind the eyes. It's just a knowing perceiver of things. I'm sure if our eyes were on our kneecaps, we'd sense the self there! It just feels like 'I' am looking out of my skull at the world 'out there'. Sorry Douglas Harding mate, but I've no idea what the hell you are on about! Lol

Yep, there is a little fear, stacks of doubt, plenty of resistance and frustration. I absolutely want to scream and turn away, declaring that none of this is working. Words just can't express how frustrated with all this I am. I'm quite furious to be honest. Why can't I see it?! What's wrong with me?! Are they all just a bunch of weirdos? God knows the world is full of them! Is it all just a great big pile of BS? New Age woo-woo? Was my 7 year old self right after all; I am the only thing in existence and I'm just messing with my mind? Playing games with myself, killing time. So many questions, so many doubts Tanya. I'm really not in a good place right now.


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[Tanya-D]

I don't know if I can describe the sense of self that seems focused behind the eyes. It's just a knowing perceiver of things. I

OK – so something sees all this – yes? Can you see what sees? Have a try.
And is that ‘I’ that sees everything ever NOT there?
How do you feel?

Yep, there is a little fear, stacks of doubt, plenty of resistance and frustration. I absolutely want to scream and turn away, declaring that none of this is working. Words just can't express how frustrated with all this I am. I'm quite furious to be honest. Why can't I see it?! What's wrong with me?! Are they all just a bunch of weirdos? God knows the world is full of them! Is it all just a great big pile of BS? New Age woo-woo? Was my 7 year old self right after all; I am the only thing in existence and I'm just messing with my mind? Playing games with myself, killing time. So many questions, so many doubts Tanya. I'm really not in a good place right now.

Lets investigate this!
There seems to be anger and frustration here too, along with the fear?
Sit with these feelings and beliefs and notice they're just protective mechanisms. The fear is the door, and it holds you from looking behind the door. But it's just fear. It’s OK for it to be here, it is only doing it’s job. Just let it be there, acknowledge its presence and check where it feels physically in the body. Notice the sensation. It is ONLY a sesnation, right?
What actually is fear?
What is it protecting?
What needs to be protected?
What is it that feels threatened?

Let these answers appear and let it reveal why these fears are here.
If there is no self, then there is nothing that needs to be protected, right?
Notice it is here to protect, it's a friend. It is a pointer, Paul. It is showing you where to look, the dark areas.
This is the path.We all have to face these fears and doubts and go beyond.
Now look behind it.
Is there anything behind the fear?
if so, what? And what is behind that?

(note that the sometimes the silence is not the absence of answer, it is the answer)

You can do this! :) Just take a deep breath and relax a little.

T

[Badgerbob]

Silence is the only answer I get from all these questions Tanya. What does that tell me? Lol. Maybe I'm pathetically shallow, but I honestly cannot go any deeper. I cannot answer these questions. They appear meaningless to me and that just gets me more frustrated. Do you have any on sport? Sorry, just trying to lighten myself up.

The only question I can answer is that I can't see what sees. But that's kinda obvious really. I think....


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[Tanya-D]

Answer the rest of the questions. The ones that ask you what is the fear protecting, etc. There are blocks here and we need to find them. Go over the questions again and work through the frustration. OK, so you feel frustrated, and that is all it is. It is JUST a sensation. Check this out for yourself and go through the questions again.

Catch you soon

T

[Badgerbob]

Ok Tanya, just for you I'll bite the bullet and do my best, but I'm not sure quite when as I'm working 13 hour days for a couple of days. P.


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[Tanya-D]

That's OK, Paul. :) Take your time with the questions - just don't give up!

Catch you soon

T

[Badgerbob]

Right then, I'll have a go at this again. There are a few elements to my feeling of fear. The first one is a fear of going insane, of completely losing the plot. That's not a big fear really, but it is there. My biggest fear is losing the character, the personality I have become. It would be like losing a dear friend, like losing a twin. It's like I've been chatting away with someone constantly my whole life and suddenly they won't be there anymore. God this sounds weird! But that's the only way I can describe it. I feel like I'm at the border of a whole new world and once I set foot in it, there will be no going back. What if I turn really strange and can't relate to my family and friends as I do now?

It looks like fear is protecting this 'self' that has developed over a lifetime, even though it's just a sham, an illusion. It's saying "Really? What if there is a self and you destroy it continuing with this madness? You're going to regret this!"

That's about all I can come up with right now Tanya :)


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[Tanya-D]

Hey! :)

That is really good work, Paul.

You are spot on! It is fear that's blocking the progress here.

My biggest fear is losing the character, the personality I have become. It would be like losing a dear friend, like losing a twin. It's like I've been chatting away with someone constantly my whole life and suddenly they won't be there anymore.

This is understandable. But think back to what we have worked through already - about thought.
What is a concept in thought?
Then ask yourself what a belief is. Is it the same thing?
And then ask :) if the above fear is just belief or something real, something that you could pick up and place in my hands.
How real is it really, or does it just 'seem real?
Take a good look at this.

This 'I' that won't be there anymore . . .is this another belief?
Or is it something real you could place in my hands?
What is it that is constantly here?
Where does the conscious self go when sleeping?
What is ALWAYS here instead?

It looks like fear is protecting this 'self' that has developed over a lifetime, even though it's just a sham, an illusion. It's saying "Really? What if there is a self and you destroy it continuing with this madness? You're going to regret this!"

Good! Yes, it is a fear protecting this 'self'! Excellent! Well done. So go through what you have worked out already. What is the 'self'?
Is it just in thought, or is there a little person behind the eyes who is in charge? :)
If not, then what is in the way here? Is this just an protective belief or is it a real, tangible thing?

Lots of questions there, Paul . . .just let awareness sink in to them. Challenge these assumptions.

It is always darkest before dawn. If you need another chat, let me know.

Catch you soon

T

[Badgerbob]

Beliefs are also just thoughts; they could be rational or completely irrational, but nevertheless, they are still just thoughts and not real, in the sense of being tangible. They just seem real. This 'I' too, is just another belief; persistent, bothersome and ubiquitous, that only 'seems' real. It completely evaporates in deep sleep, but is back live and kicking upon awaking.

The 'self' therefore, is just a persistent illusion; a stream of thoughts; a bunch of memories (also thoughts); a mere trick of the mind.

But I believe it all, hook, line and sinker and I just can't shake it off. Theory and common sense tell me that self is an illusion, but in everyday, practical daily living, this knowledge means absolutely nothing. It's like the knowledge of death. We are all, one day soon, going to die; but this knowledge doesn't REALLY sink in. If it did, we would live every day completely differently and little daily annoyances would mean nothing at all. This is exactly how I feel about this no self stuff. I know it and 'believe' it, but it obviously hasn't REALLY sunk in. I'm beginning to doubt if it ever will.


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[Tanya-D]

The 'self' therefore, is just a persistent illusion; a stream of thoughts; a bunch of memories (also thoughts); a mere trick of the mind.

Yup :) So, what is this mind? Where is it? Are you the mind?

But I believe it all, hook, line and sinker and I just can't shake it off. Theory and common sense tell me that self is an illusion, but in everyday, practical daily living, this knowledge means absolutely nothing. It's like the knowledge of death. We are all, one day soon, going to die; but this knowledge doesn't REALLY sink in. If it did, we would live every day completely differently and little daily annoyances would mean nothing at all. This is exactly how I feel about this no self stuff. I know it and 'believe' it, but it obviously hasn't REALLY sunk in. I'm beginning to doubt if it ever will.

"...I believe it all hook, line and sinker..." Above you say beliefs are just thoughts. So is the above just more thoughts saying you will never do this, or is that absolute fact that the illusion of self will never be seen through? Is it fact it's still a belief that is the problem here? Or is it something different?

Is the issue here that there's a belief telling you it should be different? If so, tell me how it should be different? What is it you want it to be like? If there is a preference to how it should be, then maybe that's causing the separation? Non-duality is 'Not-two', isn't it? The preference separates from the Actual Experience, for example, therefore what is 'actually' happing is not accepted for what it is. Write everything down that comes up from these questions; even if they make no sense to you!

And lastly, tell me - is this new level of knowing the mind is "just thoughts; they could be rational or completely irrational, but nevertheless, they are still just thoughts and not real, in the sense of being tangible." just intellectually understood, or is this 'seen' and 'known' like you see the sun and know its warmth?

If in doubt . . .keep going! :) Keep on peeling the layers back until there are no more layers to 'seeing' this. Well done :)

T

[Tanya-D]

Also, check the physical sensations that arise with these beliefs. What are they? Where are they? :)

[Badgerbob]

Yes, at this moment, I would say 'I' am the mind. The mind is just a bunch of thoughts, memories and deep subconscious stuff and that would pretty much some 'me' up. Doesn't mean it's real of course, but this is where 'I' am right now. It's the fizzing, electrical activity of the brain. It quietens down when I sit still and don't think and it all but switches off when I'm in deep sleep.

I know you would rather me say "I am awareness" or some such, but sitting here right now, I see awareness as just another aspect of mind. Perhaps it's the very root of the mind, but still just an aspect of it. I can't quite separate it.

Beliefs and thoughts. Yeah, my head is full of them! No facts, just thoughts. I'm not sure what you mean by the third block of questions about nonduality?

All my understanding is purely intellectual Tanya. I don't 'see' or 'know' any of this stuff at all. I'm in the exact same place I was 3 years ago and getting seriously pissed off. However, I love and appreciate your guidance Tanya; it gets me to stir up the waters and have a real good look at what's going on


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