Requesting an OM Triratna guide

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:32 am

One of the things I am noticing in Direct Experience since our conversation about there being no boundaries to the body, is a visceral sense of this - very hard to describe - a sense of no separation, a flow, and what was experienced in the arm was the same sensation.

Not very clear and trying hard not to analyse but stay with experience.
This is very clear thanks Kusalamani.

When you say;
I can't find a chooser what I do find in Direct Experience is energy which lifts the arm
What is it that makes the link between the Direct Experience of "energy" sensations and the Direct Experience of your arm lifting?

Can such a link be found in Direct Experience?

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:03 am

What is it that makes the link between the Direct Experience of "energy" sensations and the Direct Experience of your arm lifting?

Can such a link be found in Direct Experience?
There is no link - the words of the Heart Sutra have just come to mind "Feeling thought and choice, Consciousness itself are the same as this...." There is no link, because there is no separation between the Direct Experience of "energy" sensations and the Direct Experience of the arm lifting.

KM

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:57 am

So, just to be clear, is it the energy sensations that lift the arm, or just the arm lifting as the flow of experience?

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:15 am

Hi Dava

It is just the arm lifting as the flow of experience.
KM

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:02 am

Okay, so far so good.

Your willingness to strike right at the heart of what's going on is most helpful for this.

A review at this juncture then;

We've looked at the senses, including thought, and found no entity whatsoever in charge of sensing.

We've looked at actions and found no entity whatsoever in charge of acting.

We've looked at choice and decision making and found no entity whatsoever in charge of choosing and deciding.

All of this, you have reported through Direct Experience, all of this has been seen.


So tell me, when you look, can you find a shred of evidence to support the existence of a separate self?

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Thu Jul 09, 2015 8:28 pm

Hi Dava
So tell me, when you look, can you find a shred of evidence to support the existence of a separate self?
Within my Direct Experience, I cannot find a shred of 'evidence' to support the existence of a separate self? I do not know what is holding me back from saying an unequivocal yes. I think it is doubt I know that doubt is a secondary experience and there is no 'doubter'', and it feels strong.

KM

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:14 pm

I think it is doubt I know that doubt is a secondary experience and there is no 'doubter'', and it feels strong.
What is the "doubt" made of?

How does it arise?

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:15 pm

(I'm pretty sure you see this already, but I'm just checking)

^_^

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:01 pm

What is the "doubt" made of?

How does it arise?
doubt is made of physical sensations experienced in the body - they are wave like, they come and go and when I really look, especially with some kindness they do dissipate. It is also thinking and realising how I favour thinking so strongly - a habit.

One other thing, my fear is if I say unequivocally "that there is no evidence to support the existence of a separate self", I might lose that conviction - I know I know!! trying to be honest and get clear. I appreciate your constant clarifying and staying alongside.

Warm wishes
Kusalamani

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:15 pm

Doubt arises as a result of a thought.
KM

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:25 am

Doubt arises as a result of a thought.
Is there any real Directly Experiential substance to these thoughts of doubt?
One other thing, my fear is if I say unequivocally "that there is no evidence to support the existence of a separate self", I might lose that conviction
Very possible if that conviction was based on an intellectual conclusion of no separate self, it would be just one thought replacing another.

But is that the case here, that the conclusions of our investigations have been intellectual?

Best wishes,

Dave

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:49 am

Is there any real Directly Experiential substance to these thoughts of doubt?
No there isn't.
Very possible if that conviction was based on an intellectual conclusion of no separate self, it would be just one thought replacing another.

But is that the case here, that the conclusions of our investigations have been intellectual?
The conclusions of our investigations have certainly not been intellectual quite the contrary - I am having an extremely strong Direct Experience of this. I know that my belief in a separate self is a false view and that my strong belief in this has been that as long as I am in control of it, it will all be ok. This experience of no separation feels very alien and scary. So hence my hesitation.

I had an experience of having to go to a shopping mall today - normally I find this unpleasant and today I had such a strong experience of being just with "Direct Experience" that it was surprising. What I experienced was no separation from what was occurring around me and not a lot of impact from what was occurring. I enjoyed some things, moved towards things that were attractive without any sense of wanting them, moving on etc. What was surprising was how freeing it felt. So this probably means that the non existence of a separate self does not mean I will go mad.
I have also been experiencing a deep sadness today that I have spent so much of my life in this delusion.

Sorry for the ramble, but felt it important to let you know.

Warm wishes
Kusalamani

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Fri Jul 10, 2015 8:19 am

I had an experience of having to go to a shopping mall today - normally I find this unpleasant and today I had such a strong experience of being just with "Direct Experience" that it was surprising. What I experienced was no separation from what was occurring around me and not a lot of impact from what was occurring. I enjoyed some things, moved towards things that were attractive without any sense of wanting them, moving on etc. What was surprising was how freeing it felt. So this probably means that the non existence of a separate self does not mean I will go mad.
I have also been experiencing a deep sadness today that I have spent so much of my life in this delusion.

Sorry for the ramble, but felt it important to let you know.
Lovely to read, thanks for sharing that Kusalamani.

Well, what I'd like to do now is leave you with a set of questions which will allow you to summarise your experience, as you find it. I'm going to be away from the computer until tomorrow, so feel free to take your time and I'll get back to you once I'm home.

So...

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Feel free to repeat yourself.

Best wishes,

Dave

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Dianne
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dianne » Sun Jul 12, 2015 6:55 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
I now see as I look at Direct Experience that there is no separate entity 'self', 'me', 'I' anywhere.
Of course i still use and will continue to use the word "I", even though it feels different now than it did - rather strange in fact. What I do notice is that there are "thoughts' about "I", I have a name, know where I Iive, work etc. I also recognise some others by name and association. All of these thoughts are habits, learned and conditioned - there is no separate "functional" self because I can't find it in Direct Experience - very strange and mysterious.
There never was a separate entity 'self' - it is an illusion - though a very strongly held belief. What propelled me into this process, was that a good Spiritual friend said to me recently that she could see my yearning to break through and see this illusion and she also saw me reinforcing it with what I took on in my work and life. I felt this feedback very viscerally, and she was spot on and this has helped my "really looking"
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.
The illusion of a separate self is a thought, a way of defining who I was. It is a belief I have held and it often starts when I have felt threatened, scared, unsure, want to be noticed, am criticised, want to be affirmed in what I do, It works by continuing to separate me from reality, from others and from the flow of experience and contracting the world. With the focus on 'me", and in this contracted state, I now see that everything else becomes separate, and objectified.
How I see it now, is when I look at my Direct Experience I see no separate self. This has been through the process of being pointed to 'keep looking' - and now experience most of the time the process of doing, seeing, thinking, smelling, tasting, hearing as a flow of experience.
I also notice that there are thoughts, but they are also just a flow of experience arising and ceasing. I have given so much preference to 'thinking' in the form of a commentary and have been realising for sometime that it is unnecessary and now it feels totally unnecessary - of course it is still occurring, but I'm seeing it more quickly and noticing that it has no impact on Direct experience. I now see that this commentary has been reinforcing the sense of 'someone directing the show'.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
It feels freeing, scary, exciting - a phrase that keeps coming to mind in "There really is no separate self", maybe also a bit dream-like. I was not having these Direct Experiences before I started this dialogue and looking back I had not idea I would - even my expectations and motivations were 'future focussed'. Even though we have only been dialoguing for a week, it feels much longer and I seem to be experiencing time in a different way. It was lovely this afternoon, I led a puja at the end of a practice day, as there was not an "I" in the way, there was the experience of this practice as a flow and intimate connection with others. This was very different from before.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
I'm not sure there was a last bit - there were a couple of bits which started with the experience of 'lifting the arm' and coming back to look quite a few times before really seeing that "I" was not lifting the arm, but it was just lifting as a flow of experience, and the realisation that this was the same sense I had been having in the whole body during the last couple of days prior to this. Then when I went to the shopping mall, it wasn't just the arm, or the body as a flow of experience, it was 'everything'!
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How
does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I assume by this question you mean to describe these things from Direct Experience? Things happen as a result of causes and conditions arising and when those causes and conditions cease, they cease.
In the Direct Experience of seeing that there is no separate self, there cannot be 'free will', intention, choice, decision and control. Why I say this is that even though I may make a decision to do something, set an intention, try to set things up so I get a certain outcome, and make choices around all of this - those choices, decisions etc. may have very little bearing on the outcome - a bit like my expectations and motivations at the beginning of this process.
What I am responsible for is knowing the causes and conditions that create karma and therefore the shape of my life, I am not totally sure how this happens but it makes more sense to me now than it did before.

I have found this question the most difficult to reflect on and have tried to stick with my own experience and what I see in Direct Experience, but also aware that I could be coming from what I have studied,engaged with etc. before this process.
6) Anything to add?
This feels like the very beginning of something, even though it feels huge at the moment. I am finding this process so helpful, so simple, so profound, that it makes me feel like laughing and crying at the same time.

I hope you had a good break away Dava.

Warm wishes
Kusalamani

-

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Dava
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Re: Requesting an OM Triratna guide

Postby Dava » Sun Jul 12, 2015 8:08 am

Thanks Kusalamani.

Just to probe and clarify a little.
Why I say this is that even though I may make a decision to do something, set an intention, try to set things up so I get a certain outcome, and make choices around all of this - those choices, decisions etc. may have very little bearing on the outcome - a bit like my expectations and motivations at the beginning of this process.
What is this "I" that makes a decision or sets an intention?
What I am responsible for is knowing the causes and conditions that create karma and therefore the shape of my life, I am not totally sure how this happens but it makes more sense to me now than it did before.
Have you found an "I" that can be responsible?
Where is it?
How does this responsibility work?

Best wishes,
Dave


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