Point me to the moon

[romanski]

Hi I'm Roman. I haven't been seeking for very long so i don't know if i'm ready for this! I've been meditating on and off for a year as well as reading any self help book I could find. Most of the ideas didn't work or only lasted briefly when they did because they took so much effort to maintain.
I've gotten into non duality for a few months especially Eckhart Tolle, Jeff Foster, Sydney Banks and the three principles, Adyashanti, Gangaji etc. What they are saying sounds great but I haven't had any glimpses myself. I find my self going from teacher to teacher quickly, absorbing as much info as possible. I find it comforting but it only lasts a while and i'm on to my next teacher/idea.

This site intrigued me as the guides have been in the same place. No one hear is describing an incredible, dramatic enlightening experience and the process itself seems quite scientific and methodical. I also like the language that the guides use as I'm uttterly fed up and confused with some of the non dual language. If I hear consciousness again I will scream!

[Canfora]

Hi Roman and welcome to the LU forum!

My name is Sandra and I can be your guide if that is ok with you.

Did you read the LU disclaimer? If you didn't read it, please do: http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

There are a few guidelines to guide this dialogue, please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least once a day.

2. In general, I will ask the questions for you to respond to

3. Responses require your utmost honesty

4. Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

6. Please learn to use the quote function; instructions are located in the link below this line:
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

***********************************************************

If you agree with all the above, here are my first questions:

What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

Looking forward to our conversation!

[romanski]

Hi Sandra

Thank you for taking the time to guide me. I'm looking forward to our conversation as well. I've read the disclaimer and the guidelines and they are all perfectly fine.

What are your expectations for liberation? How will this feel? How will this change you?

I'm not too sure what i'm expecting. Probably some sort of an insight or an A-ha moment where i'll see that there is no I. I'm not sure how i'll feel, i'm not expecting some sort of eternal bliss or never to have any negative emotions again! but maybe to see emotions and thoughts in a different way so there not so much of a problem.

[Canfora]

Hi Roman,

Good, you know how to use the quote function. And your expectations aren't unrealistic, wonderful. Expectations are always about an imagined I and future so, if possible, put them to the side and look to reality without expecting to know what you will find, like if you are seeing things for the first time, with fresh clear eyes.

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?

Watch, wait, notice, write - what comes up? Is there fear? Is there doubt? Resistance? Frustration? Something that wants to scream and make a turn away, something that says this is not working? Or maybe there is a feeling of wow, joy, relief? Notice all that is going on inside and just put it down in writing.

[romanski]

Hey Sandra

What comes up when it is read that there is absolutely no “you” in any way, shape or form, there never has been a “you”, nor is there or will be there ever be?

First there was an immediate rejection of that statement. I thought "of course I exist i'm here right now" I felt a lot of doubt and resistance to that statement. Then also a little bit of sadness crept in without any thought attached, just a feeling. Finally a lot of confusion as my mind is trying to work out how 'I don't exist' can be true.

[Canfora]

First there was an immediate rejection of that statement. I thought "of course I exist i'm here right now" I felt a lot of doubt and resistance to that statement. Then also a little bit of sadness crept in without any thought attached, just a feeling. Finally a lot of confusion as my mind is trying to work out how 'I don't exist' can be true.

That's a very common reaction. Those sensations and thoughts are trying to protect you, they're a protection mechanism, triggered by my questions. If you don't try to avoid them and instead look to what is going on, do you see where they come from? Look straight to what is causing them. Can you see this "you" that needs protection? What's there? What can you see?

[romanski]

That's a very common reaction. Those sensations and thoughts are trying to protect you, they're a protection mechanism, triggered by my questions. If you don't try to avoid them and instead look to what is going on, do you see where they come from? Look straight to what is causing them.

I just reflected and sat silently with the statement 'there is no you and there never has been' and the same thought came up that 'it can't be true' This thought just appeared from nowhere and disappeared quickly.

Can you see this "you" that needs protection? What's there? What can you see?

I tried looking for this "you" and I just had a lot of thoughts like "what am i supposed to be looking for" "am I looking right" again they appeared from nowhere but they stayed aroung longer and started a chain of more judgmental/analytical thoughts like "your not doing it right" and "you'll never be able to get this" etc.

[Canfora]

Don't let those kind of thoughts discourage you. You are doing great, looking to your experience and describing what is being experienced. That's the way to go, Roman. Do you see that you can't be what you are seeing? :)

Let me know if strong feelings/emotions appear while you're doing this inquiry, so we can deal with those.

Let's move on!

When you say "I", what does that refer to in your experience? Please describe in detail – does "I" have a shape? A size? A quality? How do you know you are an entity separate from all the rest of life?

[romanski]

When you say "I", what does that refer to in your experience? Please describe in detail – does "I" have a shape? A size? A quality?

I believe the I is the thinker behind thoughts and the decision maker. When looking in experience for the I I'm unable to find anything concrete, perhaps a vague sensation in my head where i hear thoughts.

How do you know you are an entity separate from all the rest of life?

Good Question. I don't know I'm assuming I am separate because i'm controlling this body and feeling the sensations and having thoughts. I feel i'm localised within this body and the rest of life is out there.

[Canfora]

When you say "I", what does that refer to in your experience? Please describe in detail – does "I" have a shape? A size? A quality?
I believe the I is the thinker behind thoughts and the decision maker. When looking in experience for the I I'm unable to find anything concrete, perhaps a vague sensation in my head where i hear thoughts.

You're saying that there is a belief about the existence of a you although a you can't be found. Do you notice the difference between what is thought and what is experienced?

Have a look - can you experience a separate you right now? Don't think about it, just look. This is an question that can be answered with a yes or a no. What is experienced? You can't see a separate you but a thought is "there must be one, I don't get this"? Is that thought truth, does it match your experience?

I feel i'm localised within this body and the rest of life is out there.

Is this a feeling or a thought?

When you say that it seems you are localised within the body, where do you think you are exactly? If you look at the body in a mirror, can you find the place where a you can be?

Find a quiet place where you can close your eyes and focus in what we label as "body".

How is the body experienced - as something solid or as sensations?

If there is no thought about your left foot, are you always aware of the foot? Are the felt sensations solid and unchangeable?

Can you find the borders between "body" and the "rest of life"? A place where the body begins and ends? Are you experiencing 2 things at once?

Is the body a container that experiences or is the body experienced, like all the rest?

Those are a lot of questions! Let me know if you want to go slower!

[romanski]

Good Morning Sandra

Thanks for the questions yesterday.I spent the day looking at these

Have a look - can you experience a separate you right now? Don't think about it, just look. This is an question that can be answered with a yes or a no. What is experienced?

In direct experience no i can't find a separate me only thoughts that say there is a me. I can only find sensations, sounds and thoughts as well as an aliveness

When you say that it seems you are localised within the body, where do you think you are exactly? If you look at the body in a mirror, can you find the place where a you can be?

When i look at my body in a mirror it feels as if i'm the one looking from beyind my eyes

How is the body experienced - as something solid or as sensations?

Defintely just sensations which keep changing especially if i focus on a particular sensation

If there is no thought about your left foot, are you always aware of the foot? Are the felt sensations solid and unchangeable?

No I'm only aware of my left foot if there is a thought about it or there's an intense sensation which grabs my attention. The sensations can seem solid until i investigate and focus when they become very changeable sometimes completely stopping of all sensation.

Can you find the borders between "body" and the "rest of life"? A place where the body begins and ends? Are you experiencing 2 things at once?

When i close my eyes and just notice the sensations of my body and the surface its in contact with I can only find the one sensation. I don't feel my hand and also the chair so i only experience only thing the sensation of the hand and chair together. If I focus on my hands when there not in contact with anything it's really hard to find a boundary. The sensations between my body and the outside become very blurry and the boundary is definetely not a fixed harsh line.

Is the body a container that experiences or is the body experienced, like all the rest?

Sorry i'm a little confused about this question.

[Canfora]

Good morning, Roman. Good job looking!

When you say that it seems you are localised within the body, where do you think you are exactly? If you look at the body in a mirror, can you find the place where a you can be?
When i look at my body in a mirror it feels as if i'm the one looking from beyind my eyes

Yes, it feels like that. You can assume there is something behind the eyes looking but where would this watcher be? Is the body housing an entity inside it? If yes, where is this entity?

Is the body a container that experiences or is the body experienced, like all the rest?
Sorry i'm a little confused about this question.

What I would like you to look for is an "experiencer" inside the body. Is the body a "bag" of bones, muscles, flesh or a place where a you that experiences resides?

You can look to body in parts: an arm for example. Is the arm experiencing or is the arm experienced? If the arm is experienced, then the arm can't be what is experiencing, yes? If you look to all body parts like this, what is it that you realize? Is a "you" inside the body? Is the body containing what you are?

[romanski]

Yes, it feels like that. You can assume there is something behind the eyes looking but where would this watcher be? Is the body housing an entity inside it? If yes, where is this entity?

I can't find any separate watcher, theres just watching. Can't find a separate entity also. But I'm controlling where to look.

You can look to body in parts: an arm for example. Is the arm experiencing or is the arm experienced? If the arm is experienced, then the arm can't be what is experiencing, yes? If you look to all body parts like this, what is it that you realize? Is a "you" inside the body? Is the body containing what you are?

The arm is definitely being experienced. If I lost my arm I would still experience other things. The same goes with other parts of the body. Theres no me in the body as I would still be experiencing without it.However this gets a bit fuzzy when I get to the head.

[Canfora]

But I'm controlling where to look.

The attention goes here and there, sure.
What do you mean by "controlling" here? Does looking need control to happen? Isn't looking like breathing, something that the body does naturally?

The arm is definitely being experienced. If I lost my arm I would still experience other things. The same goes with other parts of the body. Theres no me in the body as I would still be experiencing without it.However this gets a bit fuzzy when I get to the head.

What is inside the head that could be you? I will use one of my favorite guiding pictures here :)

[romanski]

What do you mean by "controlling" here? Does looking need control to happen? Isn't looking like breathing, something that the body does naturally?

Yeah seeing is just happening even if I close my eyes I can still see blackness and its effortless. I meant I was the one controlling where to look.

What is inside the head that could be you? I will use one of my favorite guiding pictures here :)

Haha I love that image. Weirdly it kind of did feel like that however ridiculuous it sounds! But looking in experience I can't find any separate entity.