Agorn is requesting a guide

[Kevalino]

Hello,

Agorn wrote - "I" doesn´t choose or intend, some kind of energy does. After the "event" the "I" personalizes that, so it seems as it inhabits the "doing".

Great observation. I liked how you noticed the personalization process.

Let's move on to thought. How do thoughts happen? Where do they come from and where do they go? Are you your thoughts?

Kevalino

[agorn]

hi kevalino,

How do thoughts happen?

they just happen, pop up and disappear. It´s an endless stream of energy, changing from more intense to less intense. i can´t say how thought happens, but it´s somehow connected to stories and history of experience.

Where do they come from and where do they go?

it´s impossible to discribe. it´s like thoughts come from nowhere and disappear into nowhere.

Are you your thoughts?

I´m not my thoughts, it seems to be so, since the "I" personalizes thoughts or, attaches to them, so it seems like "I am" my thoughts. But as i can´t control thoughts, they can´t be "me".

A.

[Kevalino]

Really nice work, Agorn!

...but it´s somehow connected to stories and history of experience.

Yes, one could say they are conditioned upon stories, history, and a number of other aspects of experience. However, as you’ve described, they just happen, coming and going on their own accord without “you” doing any of it.

But as i can´t control thoughts, they can´t be "me".

Excellent.

I've reviewed our thread and have some follow up questions for us to explore.

I guess it is more about a knowing on an experiential level…

This was from May 28 when we were discussing what you were hoping to gain from this inquiry. What do you know on an experiential level now?

It’s also “understood,” due to this, that “I” am empty, but honestly still have difficulties on that…strong attachment.

How would you respond to this statement now? Is there any doubt that there is no YOU?

Can awareness be aware of itself?

There has to be an “it” for this to be the case. Is awareness just awareness in direct experience?

The energy seems to be in control.

Is energy in control, or is energy energy?

Kevalino

[agorn]

hi kevalino,

What do you know on an experiential level now?

i know, that i don´t own thoughts, that appear or disappear. That identity or "I" consists of thoughts, stories, habits, preferences aso., but that if i leave all this aside there´s merely only awareness of what is happening. That if there´s only focus on awareness, also body appears as a concept of "I", only personalised by sight and sensual appearances as feelings and emotions or other bodily sensations. That if "me", "my" and "mine" are left out by observing what is just happening, then there´s no attachement of "I" towards what is happening.
But also, that the "I" concept and attachement to it is very strong and engages in an astonishing fast way, by kicking in in various different moments:)

Is there any doubt that there is no YOU?

there is no doubt, only the strong attachement towards getting lost in past, future stories, or "I" thought patterns in emotional situations. can take a moment to realize what happened and to conduct

Is awareness just awareness in direct experience?

awareness is just awareness, it´s the core of what "I am"
everything else appears to be a conceptualisation

Is energy in control, or is energy energy?

enery is energy, the control factor is still a bit blurry

A.

[Kevalino]

Hello Agorn,

Thank you for your response. I have a few follow on questions.

s there any doubt that there is no YOU?

there is no doubt, only the strong attachement towards getting lost in past, future stories, or "I" thought patterns in emotional situations. can take a moment to realize what happened and to conduct

Is this strong attachment a problem? Also, can you please clarify what you mean by "to conduct?"

Is awareness just awareness in direct experience?

awareness is just awareness, it´s the core of what "I am" everything else appears to be a conceptualisation

Please clarify what you mean by "I am."

Is energy in control, or is energy energy?

energy is energy, the control factor is still a bit blurry

Please clarify what you mean by "control factor."

Kevalino

[Kevalino]

Just checking in...How are you doing?

[agorn]

hi kevalino,

doing good, hope you are doing well.
sorry for the delay, it was a busy weekend here.
let´s get back to the questions.

Is this strong attachment a problem? Also, can you please clarify what you mean by "to conduct?"

the strong attachment can become quiet a problem sometimes, due to emotional moments or situations when the "I" identity takes over.
After realizing what is going on, to "conduct" means, coming back to being present, putting focus on thoughts aside and recognizing feelings/ emotions as a result of the feeding process towards thought

Please clarify what you mean by "I am."

meaning the core of what there is beneath the "I" identification.
it would make more sense to say empty of "I".

Please clarify what you mean by "control factor."

meaning, that it hasn´t been clear yet if there is control in the energy. knowing that the energy is just there, whithout the body being able to control, it raised questions within that are more of a rational/ social nature.
will look further into the energy again.

A.

[Kevalino]

Hello Agorn,

I'm doing well, thank you!

the strong attachment can become quiet a problem sometimes, due to emotional moments or situations when the "I" identity takes over. After realizing what is going on, to "conduct" means, coming back to being present, putting focus on thoughts aside and recognizing feelings/ emotions as a result of the feeding process towards thought

The next time this happens, see if you can look at what "problem" or "emotional moment" are composed of. Thoughts, sensations, something else? Instead of trying to conduct yourself, try simply being with the experience. You might find this blog post by Ilona helpful.

http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2013/ ... r.html?m=0

it would make more sense to say empty of "I".

Thank you.

Please clarify what you mean by "control factor."

meaning, that it hasn´t been clear yet if there is control in the energy. knowing that the energy is just there, whithout the body being able to control, it raised questions within that are more of a rational/ social nature.
will look further into the energy again.

Yes, keep looking in direct experience. Is there a controller in energy, or is the question and desire to know just thoughts?

Here are some other questions I'd like you to answer based on your direct experience:

- Have you been able to find a self that is the "experiencer?"
- Have you been able to find a self that is the "doer," or can control what happens?
- Have you been able to find a self that makes decisions?
- Have you been able to find a self that does the thinking?
- Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (tactile and kinesthetic)?
- Is there a self "in here" that is separate from the world and others "out there?"
- Is there any doubt or confusion that in all these cases, the self is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

Kevalino

[agorn]

hi kevalino,

The next time this happens, see if you can look at what "problem" or "emotional moment" are composed of. Thoughts, sensations, something else? Instead of trying to conduct yourself, try simply being with the experience.

what if a physical manifestation of emotion/ feeling stays over a longer period of time? for example crunched up stomach sensation over a week.

Is there a controller in energy, or is the question and desire to know just thoughts?

obviously just thoughts.

Have you been able to find a self that is the "experiencer?"

no

Have you been able to find a self that is the "doer," or can control what happens?

it often might seem like it, but ultimately there is no "doer" that controls.

Have you been able to find a self that makes decisions?

there is still a blind spot. i can´t make a decision to stop thinking, or make a certain moves, it just happens and is personalized. in other moments, when "I" becomes overwhelming, it seems that certain actions are taken out of aversion or emotional overload. does that explanation make sense on that level?

Have you been able to find a self that does the thinking?

no

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (tactile and kinesthetic)?

yes

Is there a self "in here" that is separate from the world and others "out there?"

no, the "I" thought separates "in here" and "out there"

Is there any doubt or confusion that in all these cases, the self is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

no there is no doubt, just still strong attachment to oversee this fact temporarely, creating confusion.

A.

[Kevalino]

Hello Agorn,

Thank you for your honest responses! You're right on with your answers, but some of them deserve to be explored a bit further.

what if a physical manifestation of emotion/ feeling stays over a longer period of time? for example crunched up stomach sensation over a week.

Good question. Sensations may last longer than a few moments, but the point to just staying with experience is three-fold. First, the energy is allowed to simply unfold on it's own accord without additional fabrication of the mind, which in turn creates more struggle. Second, by staying with sensation, it is possible to see them constantly change and to contact the fluid nature of all experience. Look to see if what we label as emotion (sadness, happiness, etc) are nothing more than labels for thoughts and sensations. Most importantly, who is sad or happy? What do you find?

Have you been able to find a self that makes decisions?

there is still a blind spot. i can´t make a decision to stop thinking, or make a certain moves, it just happens and is personalized. in other moments, when "I" becomes overwhelming, it seems that certain actions are taken out of aversion or emotional overload. does that explanation make sense on that level?

Yes, that makes sense. Even though the action is taken conditioned upon aversion, please look to see what's happening here too. In moments where reaction occurs, is it nothing more than conditioned habit? Is there anyone or anything driving or controlling that habitual tendency?

no there is no doubt, just still strong attachment to oversee this fact temporarely, creating confusion.

Look closely at "attachment." What is attachment and who is attached? Also, is that back and forth between seeing clearly and then wanting to oversee it nothing more than thoughts?

Kevalino

[agorn]

hello kevalino,

Look to see if what we label as emotion (sadness, happiness, etc) are nothing more than labels for thoughts and sensations. Most importantly, who is sad or happy? What do you find?

yes you are right, it´s nothing more than labels, for thoughts and sensations, that become personalized.
the body is not sad or happy, as well as the awareness. It´s the "I" thought that interferes with thoughts and emotions, creating the bodily manifestations, like scrunched up stomach or tightened chest (as in sadness or anger).

please look to see what's happening here too. In moments where reaction occurs, is it nothing more than conditioned habit? Is there anyone or anything driving or controlling that habitual tendency?

yes it seems to be an habitual reaction out of very deep rooted conditioning.
the reaction also just happens, no controller, but it appears to be driven by the conditioned "I" thought

Look closely at "attachment." What is attachment and who is attached? Also, is that back and forth between seeing clearly and then wanting to oversee it nothing more than thoughts?

The "I" thought is attached to it´s conditional habits. the fear of letting go, created by thoughts, seems to keep the identification with the "I" thought strong. Letting go of "I" identification, or merely of the body/mind, appears to be quiet difficult at times, especially when intense sensations occure, that seem to be the essential "glue" in this. and yes, the movement between seeing and overseeing of "what is",
is only thoughts too.

Argorn

[Kevalino]

Hello Agorn,

Great! Thank you for your responses. Here are some remaining questions I have for you:

1) Is there a separate entity, "self," "me," or "I" at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Kevalino

[agorn]

hello kevalino,

Is there a separate entity, "self," "me," or "I" at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

there is no separate "self" to find anywhere. since it isn´t there, it obviously has never been there and is just a conditioned thought pattern.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

the illusion of separate self is merely created by thought and/ or sensual perception. Thoughts arise, often based on history, experience, habits, preferences aso. in various situations and become personalized by a thought pattern called "I". The illusion of "my" thoughts takes place.
The imaginary "I" tends to like or dislike, followed by bodily sensations, emotions, feelings and arousal of those sensations tend to be personalized as well. It´s like a conditioned reflex, that the imaginary "I" draws the conclusion, that "I" is made of these thoughts and sensations.
The body itself is also personalized by the "I", especially due to the senses of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and feeling. The experienced sensations become inhabited by the "I" thought pattern and create a sense of "my" sensations, felt through "my" body, eventhough there´s no "I" to be found, just awareness of what is.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It doesn´t feel that different i have to say, except that it started a process of seeing through those habitual patterns. Before it was very easy to get drawn into thoughts and sensations on a level of "me" or "mine", resulting in alot of struggle and confusion, seperation from "the outside" and just being "in here".
within the past few days the biggest breakthrough was realising that avoidance of "what is" creates separation. By just seing things the way they are and not trying to change them, it created a feeling of intimacy and closeness.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

on a very privat level, the approach of my former partner to get back in touch with me, even though "I" was sure
to avoid a contact, due to emotional pain and anger. by realizing that this only creates separation and supports the "imaginary self" thought, the conclusion of just looking at what is and accepting what i can´t change, was a surprisingly liberating moment.

Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Decision, intention, free will, choice and control are thought patterns, creating the illusion of "I" am in charge here.
Everything just happens, driven by a constant flow of energy that is not controlled by an illusion called "I".
I can´t clearly explain how "it" works, but it´s all just happening from moment to moment. there´s a capacity of energy all over that makes things happen in various forms.
As being only awareness, i´m not responsible for what is happening. Engagement with the illusion of a separate self and its habits and conditionings could cause interferences and actions based on habits and conditioning. Responsibility is quiet relative, since there is nothing like an "I", that could be responsible. Merely actions and reactions driven by this illusory identification with the "I" thought might cause damage on others, so that the illusion becomes responsible for such an outcome. Out of anger or jealousy, actions had been taken that used force to change what "was". Force in this sense is always violent, and creates only more struggle, supporting the illusion of "I" and tightening the cage of conditioning and habits.

Anything to add?

there is one question that has been difficult to clarify. If the "I" illusion arises within a child round about the age of two years, so starts the process of conditioning, sticking to that illusion of "self". By experience of various different circumstances and situations, the illusory "self" starts to create a story of itself and so the child develops certain habitual patterns and so on.
what happens, if the child is exposed to circumstances and experiences that might have a negative impact, before the process of "self" identification starts? can this also be understood as just an illusion, or is the "reflex" of memory stored on a different level than just thought, for example in the body?

thank you
Aragorn

[Kevalino]

Hello Aragorn,

Thank you for your clear and thorough responses. I enjoyed reading about your personal break throughs and am pleased for you. I will check with some of our other guides to make sure I haven't missed anything and get back to you!

Regarding your last question about a child experiencing a negative impact before the sense of self is constructed, I don't know what would happen.

Kevalino

[Kevalino]

Hello Agorn,

It looks good. There is one more question. Can you find awareness separate from whatever you are aware of? Thanks! Kevalino