My guide, I'm looking for you

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete

Namaste!!
And thanks for being with me and making me see through and guiding me on and on.. :)

Good, because there's no experiencer, right?

Yes, Right.

I'd like to know a little more about why you don't think 'body' is just a thought label Vishal. I can agree with you that what we conventionally call 'the body' also appears to the other senses, when our eyes are open etc., but please tell me how the 'body' appears in direct experience if not entirely as sense arisings. If it doesn't, how can the word 'body' be anything but a label?

After going through this more, i have experience that body is also a thought label. Yes in direct experience it is sense arisings only. And so another thought label called 'Body'.

Thanks a lot

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

thanks for being with me and making me see through and guiding me on and on.. :)

It's a pleasure Vishal :)

Good, because there's no experiencer, right?

Yes, Right.

Right.

After going through this more, i have experience that body is also a thought label. Yes in direct experience it is sense arisings only. And so another thought label called 'Body'.

That's great!

So, now you've looked and looked everywhere there is to look in direct experience and you haven't been able to find even a trace of a self-entity lurking anywhere. But, before we review and revisit any areas that might be needed, let's just look from a different perspective:

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

What experiences?

What thinks?

What does?

What is aware?

i'm really pleased with how all of this has gone my friend.

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Friend

Thanks for all the questioning which has pointed me to look where required.

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

With I is revealed as a thought story, what is remains is nothing. Awareness only remains,
But still the thought story is still powerful enough to overshadow this knowing and construct an I of thought labels.

What experiences?

Awareness

What thinks?
Awareness

What does?
Awareness

What is aware?
Awarenes is

Thanks a lot
With gratitude and Regards
Vishal

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

With 'you' revealed as a thought story, what remains?

With I is revealed as a thought story, what is remains is nothing. Awareness only remains,
But still the thought story is still powerful enough to overshadow this knowing and construct an I of thought labels.

Excellent.

I'm really happy about the way this investigation has gone Vishal. You've now looked at all areas of direct experience and you haven't found a self-entity lurking there anywhere. So, I think now's a good time, before we move to 'final questions' (I'll explain about them in the next post), briefly to review everything we've done so far; just to see if you need to revisit any aspects to look in more depth for any evidence of a self-entity anywhere at all.

As always, in direct experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

It might seem like a bit if a long list of questions but the answers can be brief unless, of course, there's something you want to examine some more. It doesn't look to me as if there's likely to be much, if anything, but basically, we just need to tidy up and identify any areas that need to be looked into a bit more deeply, or clarified.

Great work Vishal :)

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Hi Pete

Thanks and gratitude

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No but only awareness of it

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

There is no self only awareness of everything

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?

there are no doubts at this moment. But this clarity gets muddies again by the thoughts again reinforcing this 'self' through intellectualisations and previously held beliefs. Which seems to strengthen this mentally constructed self and then again the process has to be repeated to see through clearly. This seems to be going on and on.



Thanks Pete

With lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Thanks for your clear answers.

There are no doubts at this moment. But this clarity gets muddies again by the thoughts again reinforcing this 'self' through intellectualisations and previously held beliefs. Which seems to strengthen this mentally constructed self and then again the process has to be repeated to see through clearly. This seems to be going on and on.

You were under the illusion that thoughts telling you that 'you' existed as a separate self were real and true for almost all of your life. Those energy habits don't simply cease straightaway because you have seen and now know experientially that there simply is no separate self. It takes time. However, now you have seen these I-thoughts for what they, are, i.e. neither true nor referring to anything real, they will gradually lose their power to seduce, influence and distract you. So long as, whenever you look to see whether a separate self is there, you see none, and you know that what these thoughts are saying has no reference to anything, no problem.

So, here are the final questions Vishal. When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. Once I get your answers, and have clarified anything I might need to, I'll put them forward for to the guides for any comments. I'll then arrange for you to get access to the aftercare and various other groups on Facebook and the LU site. These are very friendly, helpful and supportive forums where you can discuss any issues relating to having seen that there's no separate self. Initially, it can be very helpful to talk with other folks who have also recently gated. So, if you do want to join the FB groups, please either let me know your details here or, if you prefer, PM them to me.

Always from direct experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

I'm really pleased that this has gone so well Vishal.

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete

Thanks a lot for your support and guidance that helped me see through the last illusion.

Always from direct experience:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate self, i or me but only a self constructed through thoughts, beliefs, impressions, sensations. There never has been a separate self.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Illusion of separate self is the illusion of of self constructed through our thoughts, our beliefs, impressions received in life , sensations from our body. these give rise to an identity of self and throughout our experiences thoughts, beliefs are being added or subtracted from this self. But when seeing directly it is nowhere to be found except in thoughts. And that is seen only through awareness of it all.
Everything exist in awareness and that is all.
For me fear anxiety has remained lurking in the backdrop of my life and i has always imagined this as a real me. fearful, anxious, shy etc etc. Identification with this 'i' has been driving my life in a way which was always resisted. But gradually as i understood teh importance of being more in the NOW which means bringing more awareness to everyday moments of life things changed gradually, inner resistance to everyday events decreased and awakening of the awareness brought much peace in life. but now there was an identification with this awareness as 'i'. the duality still remained. but then going through this process saw the end of seen and seer, hearer and heard, and all.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is not much change in the feel of it. Maybe the seeing is not full. But a peace or silence has set in. In past few days various fears have surfaced. Staring from the resistance of the process itself and various other fears which have been hidden for long like the ultimate fear of death itself. But seeing these fears for what they are and acknowledging them with gratitude loosened their hold and they seem to have vanished. Some of the days during this have been intense. Challenging the dearly held beliefs and seeing them go had seen lot of resistance go with it.

One more change i've observed is Clear thinking. there is greater clarity in thinking process and decisions.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Realising the body itself as a thought label was the last push which released everything held as 'i'.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

Decision - process of selecting out of various alternatives
free will - thought that alll decisions choices and control are made by 'i'
choice - selection out of random events
control - thought of directing the happening of events

Only awareness of things seems to makes them happen. No idea how this works. There is nothing i am responsible for. choices, intentions, decisions appear as thoughts in the awareness only. without the awareness of those nothing seem to exist.

Please give examples from recent experience.

6) Anything to add?

Before the beginning of the process I was stuck at the idea of awareness as an i which is witness to all the happening and without this witnessing nothing seem to occur. But this idea was again construction of another i different from observed. An idea of observer separate from observed. But the process helped me see through this illusion of separate observer and observed. Now there has been seeing of sameness of observer observing and observed. But this knowing seems to happen off and on and inbetween the illusion of self starts operating automatically.
One last fear - This illusion of self needs to be retained for practical purposes for operating in life ?

Thank you dear guide for helping me see through the final illusion.

Thanks and lots of gratitude for you as my guide and everyone at LU

lots of love

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Thank you for your clear, straightforward answers.

You just need also to let me have the following, requested in my previous post When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience. There only need to be two or three and nothing special, detailed or copious, just any ordinary everyday occurrences from what's happening to you now or very recently. Once you let me have them, I'll ask the guides have a look.

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

dear pete
I will reply on monday. thanks a lot.
regards and gratitude

[moondog]

Ok, looking forward to that.

Thanks for letting me know.

Have a good weekend.

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete
Namaste

Thanks for all the patience and guidance from you.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?.
When answering question 5, please give specific and very recent examples from direct experience.

From my direct experience

There is a subtle change in the perception of world in my direct experience. Sometimes when i look out and see the scene around me there is no I doing the looking. There seems to a seeing only happening, seen seeing itself. Everything seems dreamlike. characters emerging out of consciousness walking around. scenes happening on their own for amusement of itself
a realisation of truth of

'Just consciousness taking the shape of experience from moment to moment.
Just this'

.
sometimes looking at people there is a sense arising of looking at myself only. everything appears as me.

Thoughts seem to be arising on there own for fulfiment of particular experiences. There is no control or freewill happening. Neighbourhood pet dogs seems to be more friendly now.
desire for control seems to have been relinquished and everything seems to be happening perfectly.
There is perception of deep sense of false control operating in people around. But there is no judgement for it.

these are some of my experiences. Coming to the experience of the process itself.
first few days were worrisome whether i'm doing good or not so good was worrying me. seeing your reply in the mailbox aroused fear like 'dont know how i have done'. but now that fear seems to have gone. there is acceptance of situation. you may say i failed totally or i saw through brilliantly its ok both ways.

But this is not permanent , fears do arise again and false self seems to strengthen itself through any accomplishment. but its all viewed with gratitude. no blaming or condemning of this self also.

thanks a lot
with lots of regards and gratitude

:)

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Thanks for all your answers; they're great.

I'll now ask the guides to have a look at this thread and I'll let you know as soon as I can whether they have any queries to clarify anything, as they often do. It's a good idea to check from time to time, to keep the flow going if necessary. It can take a day or two or longer, or it can be quicker. No worries.

After that, I'll arrange for you to get access to various groups on Facebook and the LU site, if that's what you'd like to do. Looking forward to your PM with your FB details if you do.

Pete x

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Just one query from one of the guides:

What do you mean when you say 'Awareness thinks' etc?

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Guide
Namaste
Thanks

What do you mean when you say 'Awareness thinks' etc?

Thinking happens in the realm of awareness only, just like everything does. Awareness is not doing the thinking but its only in its presence that thinking happens.Thoughts are awareness.

thanks

lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

I'm pleased to be able to tell you that the guides have no further queries and are now satisfied that you have seen through the illusion of a separate self.

I've just been in touch with LU admin to get you 'turned blue' and they will be contact you with invitations to the various groups etc. The groups are friendly, helpful and supportive, for those, like you, fresh 'through the Gate', and for later on. PM me with your Facebook details if you decide you wish to join those groups.

You can, of course, always contact me about anything whenever you want.

It's been a pleasure and a privilege for me to point you towards seeing that there's no separate self and never was. I've really enjoyed helping you to look in the right places.

Go well Vishal.

Love,

Pete