My guide, I'm looking for you

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete

After some pondering over these I'm replying with my observations

So, regarding the times you're looking at a tree or an orange or whatever and you say you feel an 'I' inside, can you actually find that separate self in 'your' direct experience? If you can, please describe this entity and tell me how it functions. Or, if you can't, do you mean by feel thoughts or feelings, or perhaps a combination of both?

Yes while looking at any object I sense and I as a presence just witnessing the seeing. This entity seems to be just available as a presence and not passing any judgements on object of observations. But sometimes there is a voice of desire, and a commentary goes on about the observed object and still a presence is available witnessing the commentary as well. It seems to be neutral to everything. But it is confined within the body only.

Please do the same with hearing, touching, tasting and smelling and tell me, in each case, whether you can find a self-entity doing the sensing.

Yes same oobservations as above

Again, solely from direct experience, i.e. seeing, touching, hearing, smelling and tasting, not from thoughts, when looking at something specific, can you find any separation or boundary between that which is seeing, the process of seeing, and that which is seen? If you can, please tell me how this boundary/separation appears?

Yes there is boundary of separation appears between the object and seeing process. the object seen and process of seeing is not clearly separable but one doing the seeing is felt a separate entity sitting in the body that is witnessing everything through all the senses. But this being is being felt mainly in the head. this is acting as an attention also, like when we bring attention to any of the senses then its input is felt predominantly and other senses seems dulled out. e.g there is music going on and an object which is being seen. If attention is on seeing only them music seems dulled out or even disappear. So attention may be on characteristics of this being which brings the observed as observed.

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Also, you say 'who is this I looking for I?' Is there an 'I' looking? Can you find it?

Already explained this.

Interesting Vishal. Do you not agree that all feelings, emotions and thoughts occur in the present moment? If they don't, how can you ever be aware of them, and where and when do they occur if not here and now? Also, aren't fears, memories and ambitions comprised of feelings, thoughts or emotions, or a combination of these?

Yeah right everything needs to occur in the present moment to be felt to become aware of them. awareness can feel everything happening right now only and not in the past. Yes fears, memories, ambitions etc are comprised of thoughts which give rise to feelings and emotions which are felt in the present moment only. but the thinking mind which runs stories about these in the mind gives rise to feelings in the body which are felt as real and gives rise to bodily sensations associated with these.

My perception of I is now of the presence available behind the scene doing all the observation.

Thanks

With lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Yes while looking at any object I sense an I as a presence just witnessing the seeing. This entity seems to be just available as a presence and not passing any judgements on object of observations. But sometimes there is a voice of desire, and a commentary goes on about the observed object and still a presence is available witnessing the commentary as well. It seems to be neutral to everything. But it is confined within the body only.

You're just telling me what you believe, what thought says, what you've read in books. I don't want that. It's absolutely crucial that you remember that all I am pointing you to do here is to look in 'your' direct experience (seeing, hearing, touching, tasting and smelling NOT what you think or feel or seems to be so) for a self-entity that is present and doing something (seeing, hearing, thinking, deciding etc.) Clearly for you to know anything in experience requires aware presence or whatever you want to call 'it', and we're all aware of awareness; awareness is aware of itself. But I'm not asking you about that.

I don't want to know what you sense or feel to be the case, that's not direct experience, and I don't want you to tell me about global awareness or infinite witnessing presence. I only want to know - solely from 'your' experience - when you're looking at a tree or an orange or whatever and you say you feel an 'I' inside, can you actually find that separate self in 'your' direct experience? If you can, please describe this entity and tell me how it functions.

Please do the same with hearing, touching, tasting and smelling and tell me, in each case, whether you can find a self-entity doing the sensing.

Yes while looking at any object I sense an I as a presence just witnessing the seeing. This entity seems to be just available as a presence and not passing any judgements on object of observations.

Just as above, I'm not interested in what you sense or feel. These are the products of thinking and so are not real, just concepts and beliefs. I want to know whether, when 'you' are looking at an object, you can actually detect - NOT sense or feel or whatever but actually see in experience - any kind of barrier or separation between that which is seeing, the process of seeing, and that which is seen. If you can, please tell me how this boundary/separation appears? Please do the same with the other senses.

Also, you say 'who is this I looking for I?' Is there an 'I' looking? Can you find it?

Already explained this.

Sorry, I don't understand. Please simply answer these questions, bearing in mind my comments earlier in this post regarding exactly whatwe are looking for in this process.

No worries Vishal, you're getting there.

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Hi
Namaste

I don't want to know what you sense or feel to be the case, that's not direct experience, and I don't want you to tell me about global awareness or infinite witnessing presence. I only want to know - solely from 'your' experience - when you're looking at a tree or an orange or whatever and you say you feel an 'I' inside, can you actually find that separate self in 'your' direct experience? If you can, please describe this entity and tell me how it functions.

Please do the same with hearing, touching, tasting and smelling and tell me, in each case, whether you can find a self-entity doing the sensing.

No i can't experience any separate self in looking. I tried with touch also and couldn't find anything which is a separate entity. even can't separate the seen and the seeing.

Just as above, I'm not interested in what you sense or feel. These are the products of thinking and so are not real, just concepts and beliefs. I want to know whether, when 'you' are looking at an object, you can actually detect - NOT sense or feel or whatever but actually see in experience - any kind of barrier or separation between that which is seeing, the process of seeing, and that which is seen. If you can, please tell me how this boundary/separation appears? Please do the same with the other senses.

No barrier is perceived in that which is seeing, process and the object which is seen.

Also, you say 'who is this I looking for I?' Is there an 'I' looking? Can you find it?

Mind in its thoughts is looking for something to describe as I.

Regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

No i can't experience any separate self in looking. I tried with touch also and couldn't find anything which is a separate entity. even can't separate the seen and the seeing.

Excellent Vishal. At last I think we're on the same page.

Please do the same with hearing, tasting and smelling and tell me whether you can find a self-entity in direct experience in each case.

No barrier is perceived in that which is seeing, process and the object which is seen.

Again excellent but, as I asked, please do exactly the same with each of the other four sense arisings and, for each one, let me know whether you can find any separation between that which experiences, the process of experiencing, and that which is being experienced.

Mind in its thoughts is looking for something to describe as I.

True.

Ok, that seems to be going well, so let's move on to looking at what, in many ways is at the core of this illusion: thoughts and thinking, to see if a separate self can be found somewhere there.

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Are you in control of them?

Can you stop a thought from coming?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Do you know what the next thought will be?

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

Can a thought think?

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete
Namaste

Please do the same with hearing, tasting and smelling and tell me whether you can find a self-entity in direct experience in each case.

Yes I tried with all other four senses
Touch - only touched exist, even the process of touching and one doing the touching doesnt' exist
Smell - only smell exists, the process of smelling or smeller can't be experienced directly
taste - only taste exists, the taster and tasting can't be detected
hear - only what is heard exists neither the process of hearing nor the hearer can be detected

Again excellent but, as I asked, please do exactly the same with each of the other four sense arisings and, for each one, let me know whether you can find any separation between that which experiences, the process of experiencing, and that which is being experienced.

Touch - only touched exist, even the process of touching and one doing the touching doesnt' exist
Smell - only smell exists, the process of smelling or smeller can't be experienced directly
taste - only taste exists, the taster and tasting can't be detected
hear - only what is heard exists neither the process of hearing nor the hearer can be detected

Not from what you think, but from direct experience, please say:

Where do thoughts come from?

Can't pinpoint the origin of thoughts. Sometime certain feelings can trigger certain thoughts. Though thoughts can trigger chain of different thoughts.

Are you in control of them?

No. While observing thoughts there can be long period of no-thought and then a thought bubble pops up and then some more or another gap.

Can you stop a thought from coming?

No I can't

Can you stop it in the middle?

Yes a thought can trigger long chain of thoughts and I can stop that chain from extending long.

Do you know what the next thought will be?

No I can't know.

Is 'I' a different thought from the thought of say, a table?

I thought appears same as thought of table.

Can a thought think?

If thinking means generating thoughts then yes thought can generate more thoughts. Sometime a person can be imagined or thought by mind and that person can have its own thoughts. so that means thought thinking thoughts. You can lead me more onto this.

Thanks a lot
With lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Thanks for your latest replies. You're going great guns now.

Yes I tried with all other four senses
Touch - only touched exist, even the process of touching and one doing the touching doesnt' exist
Smell - only smell exists, the process of smelling or smeller can't be experienced directly
taste - only taste exists, the taster and tasting can't be detected
hear - only what is heard exists neither the process of hearing nor the hearer can be detected

Excellent, you can clearly see that there's no separate experiencer, no separate object being experienced, just experience or probably more accurately experiencing, as there's really only ever awareness 'awareing'.

Do you agree?

Can you stop it in the middle?

Yes a thought can trigger long chain of thoughts and I can stop that chain from extending long.

I know that as soon as 'I' become aware of a thought, it just disappears. But, when 'I' look, there's just awareness; there's no 'I' there to be found. Is that what you mean? If not, please describe to me - as always solely from direct experience, not from thoughts or feelings - what this 'I' that you say can actually stop thoughts looks like. Also, please describe to me how it does that. How does it function?

I thought appears same as thought of table.

I agree it does, but do you not agree that whereas, at least conventionally, an object like a table exists and can be perceived 'out there', the 'I' does not, cannot and is merely a thought?

If thinking means generating thoughts then yes thought can generate more thoughts. Sometime a person can be imagined or thought by mind and that person can have its own thoughts. so that means thought thinking thoughts. You can lead me more onto this.

Remember Vishal, we're only concerned with direct experience. Can you find in 'your' direct experience more than one thought, i.e. one process of thinking, happening at any one time? If not, how can you see one thought generating another, rather than one thought arising, abiding for a while, and then subsiding, sooner or later to be replaced by another etc., etc. Where in direct experience is the generating happening? What do you see that shows it? How does it actually work?

Good work Vishal. I'm enjoying guiding you. How is it for you? Are you enjoying this process? I hope so :)

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete
Namaste!

Thanks

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Excellent, you can clearly see that there's no separate experiencer, no separate object being experienced, just experience or probably more accurately experiencing, as there's really only ever awareness 'awareing'. Do you agree?

Yes i agree, there is only ever awareness getting aware.

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I know that as soon as 'I' become aware of a thought, it just disappears. But, when 'I' look, there's just awareness; there's no 'I' there to be found. Is that what you mean? If not, please describe to me - as always solely from direct experience, not from thoughts or feelings - what this 'I' that you say can actually stop thoughts looks like. Also, please describe to me how it does that. How does it function?

Yes actually its awareness of thoughts that stop the thoughts mid way. Yes when 'I' looks its only awareness with no I to be found. Stopping the thoughts only happens by being aware of thoughts. Not by any I wishing them to stop. there is no i to be found so cant' describe its functioning.

But what about wishes whom do they belong to?

I agree it does, but do you not agree that whereas, at least conventionally, an object like a table exists and can be perceived 'out there', the 'I' does not, cannot and is merely a thought?

Yes agreed a table thought can be perceived out there but I thought Can Not be.

Remember Vishal, we're only concerned with direct experience. Can you find in 'your' direct experience more than one thought, i.e. one process of thinking, happening at any one time? If not, how can you see one thought generating another, rather than one thought arising, abiding for a while, and then subsiding, sooner or later to be replaced by another etc., etc.

No in my direct experience there is not mroe than one thought happening at a time. Yes there no thought generating another thought but a thought abiding for a while and then followed by another thought.. and tehn another and another and so on.

But what about thoughts related to problem solving. they are triggered by a situation at hand and intent for solving it. Here numerous thoughts are generated and evaluated, accepted or rejected, where is this happening?

Where in direct experience is the generating happening? What do you see that shows it?

In direct experience this is happening in awareness only without awareness there are no thoughts.

How does it actually work?

can't say.

For me the process is forcing me to look further and further. There is something which is denying the process and sensations associated with fear arise sometime and as advised accepting them with lots of gratitude for what it seems to be protecting , seems to help.

Thanks Pete. Sometimes there are sudden flashes of joy.

Lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Namaste!

Yes actually its awareness of thoughts that stop the thoughts mid way. Yes when 'I' looks its only awareness with no I to be found. Stopping the thoughts only happens by being aware of thoughts. Not by any I wishing them to stop. there is no i to be found so cant' describe its functioning.

You got it.

But what about wishes whom do they belong to?

All we are doing here is looking for a thinker, i.e a separate self doing thinking. So why would wishes be any different to any other thoughts? Does content of thoughts somehow distinguish it from other thoughts dependent on its contents, such as in this case with wishing? In direct experience can 'you' find a self-entity when wishing?

No in my direct experience there is not more than one thought happening at a time. Yes there no thought generating another thought but a thought abiding for a while and then followed by another thought.. and then another and another and so on.

It's good that you can see that in experience.

But what about thoughts related to problem solving. they are triggered by a situation at hand and intent for solving it. Here numerous thoughts are generated and evaluated, accepted or rejected, where is this happening?

It all just happens like everything happens. Your question relates to how decisions and choices are made and whether they involve the agency of a separate self. No worries Vishal, we'll be coming on to that soon.

For me the process is forcing me to look further and further. There is something which is denying the process and sensations associated with fear arise sometime and as advised accepting them with lots of gratitude for what it seems to be protecting , seems to help.

Yes, this is a very fundamental, revealing process so it's not surprising that so much apparent resistance is triggered, and so much emotional energy is released. It sounds like you're responding in just the right way.

You're doing great so let's now have a look at doing - actions and control, to see if you can find a separate self there:

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Guide
Namaste

Thanks for all the guidance and poking to look in the right direction. Things appear clear sometimes and sometime again everything becomes muddy. And its like starting over again and again.

All we are doing here is looking for a thinker, i.e a separate self doing thinking. So why would wishes be any different to any other thoughts? Does content of thoughts somehow distinguish it from other thoughts dependent on its contents, such as in this case with wishing? In direct experience can 'you' find a self-entity when wishing?

Desiring, Wishing, intentions, judgements are thoughts which are invited by a self which is called I. These are thoughts which can be there or cannot be. But random thoughts seem to occur on there own and are realised only through awareness. Similarly thoughts like wishing intention etc are also realised only by awareness but there occurrence seem to be controlled by a thinker. But on deeper investigation this thinker is no where to be found except awareness. While doing the wishing also the self entity cannot be found.

This is so confusing.

It's clear that when we breathe, blink, digest food etc. there's no 'I' involved, but how is it for you when walking?

When walking there is a wish and an action. But to whom this wish occurs is an i thought which again is nowhere to be found.

How is it when doing various everyday things like say, brushing your teeth, washing up, that kind of thing? Try all kinds of stuff.

For each of these activities there is an intention and an event followed by it. this is occurring to an I thought.

Is there any 'I' there for any of these actions, or are they just like 'automatic'?

These are occurring to an I thought. But this I is nowhere to be found except awareness of itself.

Interestingly wishing thoughts seem to have reduced.

Thanks
With lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Things appear clear sometimes and sometime again everything becomes muddy. And its like starting over again and again.

Don't worry about that Vishal, that's not at all unusual at the stage of looking that you're at. Nothing unusual.

Similarly thoughts like wishing intention etc are also realised only by awareness but there occurrence seem to be controlled by a thinker. But on deeper investigation this thinker is no where to be found except awareness. While doing the wishing also the self entity cannot be found.

It's good that you can now see that clearly.

This is so confusing.

Just remember to look at where confusion starts. Is it in direct experience, or is it in thoughts?

When walking there is a wish and an action. But to whom this wish occurs is an i thought which again is nowhere to be found.

For each of these activities there is an intention and an event followed by it. this is occurring to an I thought.

These are occurring to an I thought. But this I is nowhere to be found except awareness of itself.

Brilliant!

Interestingly wishing thoughts seem to have reduced.

Perhaps seeing them for what they are has robbed them of their apparent potency ;)

Let's now move on along the same lines by looking at deciding and choosing. There's quite an overlap with actions and control but it's useful to look more closely at what happens (and doesn't happen) when decisions/choices are made.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

Finally, can I ask you to have a look at the following video clip from Sam Harris:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zZLyYq_QQ ... e=youtu.be
It's really the first 35 minutes that are particularly relevant. (The q&a session that follows is interesting too, but not so much). Sam Harris talks about free will and explains clearly, logically and scientifically, why there is never an 'I' making choices and decisions There is no substitute for looking in direct experience, but this is excellent 'conventional' corroboration for what is to be found, or rather not found, in direct experience.

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

thanks :)

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete
Namaste

Thanks for all the support and guidance. for all the pain you are taking for me. Please accept my gratitude for the same.

Just remember to look at where confusion starts. Is it in direct experience, or is it in thoughts?

Confusion is in the thoughts only and not any direct experience.

Raise your right arm (or don’t). In that process of raising the right arm (or not), a decision is made, or at least something happens (or doesn’t). But can you pinpoint the actual moment of choice and find the actual entity that appears to be making that choice? In direct experience, can that moment of choice, that apparent chooser, actually be found? Or does the idea 'I just chose to (not) raise my right arm' come after the event itself?

I'm unable to actually pinpoint the moment of choice or decision happening. But no entity seems to be making the choice. Only awareness of the event happening. In the direct experience of the event choser cannot be found. No I here. The thought of I making the choice arises sometime before the event or sometimes even afterwards.

I'll go through the Sam Harris video. I visited his blog and bought kindle book 'Free Will'. Will ponder over that and share my learnings or un-learnings as they happen.

Dreams are very vivid and even in dreams sometime awareness is available seeing all that is happening. Alertness seem to have increased. and chaos in the mind is reducing out. Lesser thoughts.

Thanks a lot
Lots of regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,

Thanks for all the support and guidance. for all the pain you are taking for me. Please accept my gratitude for the same.

Your gratitude is much appreciated Vishal. I'm very happy to help you.

Confusion is in the thoughts only and not any direct experience.

That is so.

I'm unable to actually pinpoint the moment of choice or decision happening. But no entity seems to be making the choice. Only awareness of the event happening. In the direct experience of the event choser cannot be found. No I here. The thought of I making the choice arises sometime before the event or sometimes even afterwards.

Good observations. Very clear.

Dreams are very vivid and even in dreams sometime awareness is available seeing all that is happening. Alertness seem to have increased. and chaos in the mind is reducing out. Lesser thoughts.

All good signs Vishal. Sounds very good.

Ok, you're doing great. So far it seems clear that you can see that there's just no separate self present in seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching, thinking, doing, controlling, deciding or choosing. That brings us to the body, so let's look to see whether there's a self to be found in or as the body:

Solely from experience:

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

Pete x

[stillwarrior]

Dear Pete
Namaste!

Many thanks for the reply.

Does the body experience sensations and thoughts?

No the body is not the experiencer of sensations or thoughts. It may be mechanism for input of sensations but not the experiencer.

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

No can't agree with that. 'Body' is not a thought label for sensations. Just like with sensations like - seeing hearing touch etc. Body is also perceived by these sensations just like anything outside of it is.

Thanks
With regards

[moondog]

Hi Vishal,
Namaste!

No the body is not the experiencer of sensations or thoughts. It may be mechanism for input of sensations but not the experiencer.

Good, because there's no experiencer, right?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinaesthetic)?

No can't agree with that. 'Body' is not a thought label for sensations. Just like with sensations like - seeing hearing touch etc. Body is also perceived by these sensations just like anything outside of it is.

I'd like to know a little more about why you don't think 'body' is just a thought label Vishal. I can agree with you that what we conventionally call 'the body' also appears to the other senses, when our eyes are open etc., but please tell me how the 'body' appears in direct experience if not entirely as sense arisings. If it doesn't, how can the word 'body' be anything but a label?

Pete x