Guide

[Canfora]

You're doing great and what you're saying that is going on with you is very common.
Don't worry, Robert and keep going :)

my cyniical mind still wants to claim responsibility for movements

What can you see thinking thoughts if you look at them?

Can a thought think?

Can the thought "I" think or is the thought "I" just a thought?

In the case that you don't find a thinker doing the thoughts, are thoughts your thoughts? Do you own them or control them?

[Robertdjemil]

I cant see thinking thoughts but it seems that there is watcher of the thoughts

I cant imagine how a thought can think, a thought appears to be a thought

There appears to be different types of thoughts. There's the ones that I seem to create as a result of planning, i.e. I want to make an appointment to see so and so. Those going back into past to retrieve data and there are those rubbish thoughts that just seem to appear spontaneously that I have no control of. In answer to your questions, I feel I own and control the former but not the latter

[Canfora]

Those going back into past to retrieve data and there are those rubbish thoughts that just seem to appear spontaneously that I have no control of. In answer to your questions, I feel I own and control the former but not the latter

Can you please describe how this owning and control take place?
And where is the I in all that - the owner and controller of thoughts? Can you find and describe this I?

I'm not asking you to justify your answer above, Robert - just have a look to what you can see happening when this kind of thinking takes place and describe it. Plan your dinner for example and see what is happening.

[Robertdjemil]

In terms of planning i.e. dinner tonight, firstly, i need to decide what I'm going eat, whether I want a light meal or other, do I want to cook or get a takeaway etc. This is what I mean by owning & taking control of my thoughts. Where these thoughts come from I cant say. I cant trace them back or find a location, they seem arise but they appear to come from my thoughts. My tummy sends a message to my brain which triggers a thought and I simply follow that thought through to a conclusion.

I must admit I'm struggling with this I concept. The only I that I know is my body and all it's component parts. Can you help me with this?

[Canfora]

I must admit I'm struggling with this I concept. The only I that I know is my body and all it's component parts. Can you help me with this?

Sure.
Are you any of the component parts? Look to those parts. Which one is you?
Are you all the body?
What makes you say that the body is "my body"?

[Robertdjemil]

I can't its a logical thought that I'm accustomed to be believing I think

[Robertdjemil]

The only thing that says the body is my body is that I can feel my heart beating, I can feel my lungs breathing in and out and these feelings lead me to believe that the body is my body

[Canfora]

And can you find the own-er of the beating heart? Or the feel-er of the breathing lungs?
An entity that owns a slice of live?

[Robertdjemil]

I cant actually find an owner or a feeler, it just feels like i'm the owner although intuitively or at some level I know that's it's not true but I could be just saying that because I want it to be true? In other words the idea that I'm not the controller is an intellectual proposition not an experiential one.

[Canfora]

Let's see if you can experience this controller of the body. See if you can make these things happen (if you are the controller of the body, then it will be easy):

Can you make the heart skip some beats?
Can you make your nails or hair grow faster?
Can you stop seeing when the eyes are open?
Can you stop digestion if you want to?
Can you make the body one day younger?

[Robertdjemil]

No I cant :)

[Robertdjemil]

I would only add, how does this apply to thoughts but it feels like I am controlling them?

[Canfora]

No I cant :)

Also my experience :)

I would only add, how does this apply to thoughts but it feels like I am controlling them?

Well, you can look to what is going on and see if the thoughts about what is going on are true in your experience.

Some questions regarding thoughts and a you that can control them:

Can you control what your next thought will be?

Can you stop having thoughts?

Can you have only happy thoughts for the next half a hour?

Can you control what you think about you? Or others? Or what is happening now?

Can you control the thoughts about being a Robert that is in control of its thinking? :)

[Robertdjemil]

I cant control my next thought, well I can try and think about something else to redirect a thought, although I suspect that's a thought too

Generally, I can't stop having thoughts although in meditation, I believe I can or at least for a short period

I believe I can choose happy thoughts and change the way I feel but I'm not sure I could do it for the next half hour

I believe I can control the way I feel about me, if I'm feeling bad, I would try and choose something more positive & I believe I can do that with others too

That final question is difficult to get my head around. I cant control the thoughts about being Robert because I am Robert that appears to be in control of its own thinking. You may need to ask that question in a slightly different way. I suspect I haven't understood your question

[Robertdjemil]

I cant control my next thought, well I can try and think about something else to redirect a thought, although I suspect that's a thought too

Generally, I can't stop having thoughts although in meditation, I believe I can or at least for a short period

I believe I can choose happy thoughts and change the way I feel but I'm not sure I could do it for the next half hour

I believe I can control the way I feel about me, if I'm feeling bad, I would try and choose something more positive & I believe I can do that with others too

That final question is difficult to get my head around. I cant control the thoughts about being Robert because I am Robert that appears to be in control of its own thinking. You may need to ask that question in a slightly different way. I suspect I haven't understood your question