hoping that now is here - can someone guide me please?

[kvotski]

https://www.ramdass.org/keeping-ground/

Even Ram Dass agrees.

[kgreenbank]

Hi Sunil, thank you for your continued encouragement and for that Ram Dass link. He is a darling.
My mind is on lockdown. I cannot seem to engage with the question "Is there a self / Kate / doer there" any longer. I apparently believe in Santa Claus again. I thought this was “once seen never unseen”. I have been quite upset about this, angry even. And also embarrassed. This is passing. I am most grateful for your guidance here.

A couple of things since we last corresponded:
I have thought long and hard about my expectations of Liberation, what I think will change, because I believe they have been getting in the way. I have a new one, and only one: I expect life to go on exactly as it did before, with only one difference: it will be seen that there is no one doing it.

Something has shifted in my ‘looking’, as a result of really paying attention in the past day or two. When I look into d.e., there is no longer an inside and an outside experience of seeing and of hearing. With seeing, it is like someone has taken my face off (!) and there is a smooth continuum of pure experience. No place in which seeing happens. No seeing (inside my head somewhere) of seen stuff (outside). Just seeing going on.

Let’s carry on shall we? I can’t get off this fairground ride, apparently.
Love and gratitude to you, Kate

[kvotski]

I apparently believe in Santa Claus again. I thought this was “once seen never unseen”. I have been quite upset about this, angry even. And also embarrassed.

Look into the upset and embarrassment. Find out if they are any more than thoughts?

Locate in direct experience, sensations what does anger mean to the body and where? And spend a few minutes on that location. See what happens a few minutes later.

Do not use words like believe lightly. Look it up on Wikipedia and see if there is truly a belief in Santa Claus again or if it is just another thought, a passing one?

I don't know of anyone who can't think about the worse possible things yet not every one is going around doing nasty things. I can think about visiting andromeda Galaxy right now or climbing the Mount Everest. And I can think that I am a real dude man, twenty something with six pack and go clubbing. All nonsensical vapor. A very faint foul smell comes from such thoughts and are quickly rejected by part of the brain I can't recall.

[kgreenbank]

Hi Sunil

Look into the upset and embarrassment. Find out if they are any more than thoughts?

Upset and embarrassment = thoughts + bodily sensations. They seem to originate from other thoughts and are then followed by more thoughts about those things. They do not have independent existence.

Locate in direct experience, sensations what does anger mean to the body and where? And spend a few minutes on that location. See what happens a few minutes later.

Tension in the body, a feeling of contraction in the stomach area. Dissolves after close looking.

Do not use words like believe lightly. Look it up on Wikipedia and see if there is truly a belief in Santa Claus again or if it is just another thought, a passing one?

OK, the OED definition of belief is "An acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof: e.g. his belief in extraterrestrial life"

I don't accept that the self exists or is true. It was, apparently, seen to be an illusion. (My embarrassment arises from self doubt. Could I have possibly imagined this????)

I would swear on the lives of my children that I don't accept that a separate, real self exists or is true. I actually believe the opposite! Currently, however, this self is experienced as existing and true. Goddammit.

Ok, this is passing thought. It's just what is in experience now. But how does that help me? I can not control my thoughts, they just appear. My expectation was that once the self had been seen to be an illusion, the experience of a separate self would not return. I'm tired and trying to analyse my way out of impossible paradoxes.

Meh :-(

K

[kgreenbank]

A doubt here: I am not capable of seeing this. Just not equipped to do it. Too analytical; lacking the necessary discipline; don't have the required ability somehow to cross the gate that other people have. etc etc

Can we deal with this please?

[kvotski]

Currently, however, this self is experienced as existing and true. Goddammit.

Ok, this is passing thought. It's just what is in experience now. But how does that help me? I can not control my thoughts, they just appear. My expectation was that once the self had been seen to be an illusion, the experience of a separate self would not return.

Please describe the experience of separate self.

[kvotski]

A doubt here: I am not capable of seeing this. Just not equipped to do it. Too analytical; lacking the necessary discipline; don't have the required ability somehow to cross the gate that other people have. etc etc

Can we deal with this please?

What is required to see this? What are your expectations for these qualities?

What are you trying to see? What do you expect to see when you truly believe there is nothing?

What would happen if you started to act and experience things as you truly see them or not see them?

Where is the resistance?

[kgreenbank]

Please describe the experience of separate self.

There is an experience of a unique and separate entity here, and a world of other things out there. I end at the boundary of my body (my skin) and then everything else starts. I am choosing to sit on my bed and type on my laptop. I feel tired and my eyes are itchy. There are a lot of thoughts, some of which I generate and direct, some of which I don't. The combination of felt senses, memories, impulses, and thoughts both belong to me and comprise me.

Typing this, it is all falling apart. I don't think what I've written is true. I could deconstruct it all by looking properly. Or at least I can in parts - look at seeing, look at thoughts etc. But I can't seem to do it all at once and allow self to be properly seen through....

It's 1130pm here and I'm bushed: I will pick this up in the morning.

I am very grateful for your kindness and patience. K

[kgreenbank]

What is required to see this? What are your expectations for these qualities?

Commitment, dedication, sincerity – more of these will increase likelihood of freedom / reduce duration of this enquiry
Spending a lot of time looking, i.e. not juggling work and kids etc
Mental focus – looking intently without reference to the mind / analysis / theorising
Being able to put down expectations
Being able to see past fear
These are all things that “I” need to do. Implication being that I am not doing this well enough.

What are you trying to see? What do you expect to see when you truly believe there is nothing?

I am trying to see my own absence. Ha. What folly! I expect to see that there is nothing there: I am trying to SEE PROOF that Kate does not exist. This is, obviously, impossible. Like standing out all night looking at the Christmas night sky trying to prove that there isn't a sleigh flying about with Santa in it.

I expect to then be able to say “Hey Sunil, there’s no self in any way shape or form!” I expect to remain somehow to report back on this as an ‘event’, or a state.

Jeez, I thought I was past this.

What would happen if you started to act and experience things as you truly see them or not see them?

I am not sure I understand this question. If you mean, what would happen if truth was seen? Nothing would be any different, except that there would be no separate self claiming ownership of actions and experiences.
If you mean something else please ask me again. I get confused sometimes with the intention behind the yous and I’s. Language really reinforces duality doesn’t it?

Where is the resistance?

The resistance is nowhere. It is not a thing, it has no location.

[kvotski]

I end at the boundary of my body (my skin) and then everything else starts. I am choosing to sit on my bed and type on my laptop. I feel tired and my eyes are itchy. There are a lot of thoughts, some of which I generate and direct, some of which I don't. The combination of felt senses, memories, impulses, and thoughts both belong to me and comprise me.

Typing this, it is all falling apart. I don't think what I've written is true. I could deconstruct it all by looking properly. Or at least I can in parts - look at seeing, look at thoughts etc. But I can't seem to do it all at once and allow self to be properly seen through....
K

The process you describe is illusion coming back and then seen through. So, don't jump to conclusion until you have given it time.

Be specific, what can't you seem to do all at once? What are you trying to see properly?

Is there a body?
What makes the bed, my bed, a laptop my laptop, eyes my eyes?
Do that exercise again, write I am doing, my head is hurting etc. and then without the pronouns?
What thoughts can you generate? Look carefully.
Combination of real things like sensations comprise a you? Then what is this composite you? Real or an idea, a label?

[kvotski]

Commitment, dedication, sincerity – more of these will increase likelihood of freedom / reduce duration of this enquiry
Spending a lot of time looking, i.e. not juggling work and kids etc
Mental focus – looking intently without reference to the mind / analysis / theorising
Being able to put down expectations
Being able to see past fear
These are all things that “I” need to do. Implication being that I am not doing this well enough.

Perhaps you are trying to rush. Take it easy, relax. This is not a weekend retreat although that may calm you down.

What expectations you are trying to put down, specifically?

What fear?

I am trying to see my own absence. Ha. What folly! I expect to see that there is nothing there: I am trying to SEE PROOF that Kate does not exist. This is, obviously, impossible. Like standing out all night looking at the Christmas night sky trying to prove that there isn't a sleigh flying about with Santa in it.

I expect to then be able to say “Hey Sunil, there’s no self in any way shape or form!” I expect to remain somehow to report back on this as an ‘event’, or a state.

You want to see nothing? Close your eyes and pretend you have amnesia. What do you see?

What would happen if you started to act and experience things as ...

I am not sure I understand this question. If you mean, what would happen if truth was seen? Nothing would be any different, except that there would be no separate self claiming ownership of actions and experiences.
If you mean something else please ask me again. I get confused sometimes with the intention behind the yous and I’s. Language really reinforces duality doesn’t it?

Where is the resistance?

yes, confusion is there by using the pronouns. So stop using them at least here.
Is there a separate self? As you say something is claiming ownership. What is this?
Is it seen in direct experience or is it a thought that comes and goes?
Is separate self simply a thought?

[kgreenbank]

Hello dear Sunil

Woohoo, today has been pretty thrilling. Thank you for your lovely posts – they have helped me a great deal, especially about relaxing, and how current experience is that of the illusion returning and then being seen through again. I really needed to hear that. The pressure is off. :-)

Sunil I have felt very strongly, and for the first time, that I have been at the gate today. Is that possible, to know this? Whilst the sense of ‘a self which owns the experience’ has not left, there have been many shifts in perception. And an abiding sense of love – that this is a loving unfolding; that Kate and all things are loved; that I love and forgive myself for everything; that I love the world and all that is in it. It’s been very, very special. Exciting, risky, gentle and real all at the same time. Perception has shifted so that objects and people, (especially when talking one-on-one), have become somehow insubstantial, barely more real than thoughts, just appearances in experience. Separate and yet not. A friend for whom liberation happened some years ago talks of “the world of appearances” – I’ve not understood that before but I did today. This has been accompanied by a thought “just let go”, emotion welling up and tears starting to prick my eyes. (I am not a crier.) I have resisted this – in a public place, feeling like I need someone to be with me and hold my hand, a bit scared. It is at these moments, repeated again and again throughout the day, that I have felt, been certain actually, this is the gate.

I am back home now and I have noticed that the separate self really ‘solidifies’ when I am around my kids. Instead of worrying about that or trying to think my way out of it, I’m cool now. I will carry on with this enquiry, talking with you for as long as you are happy to, answering your questions and letting whatever is happening just happen.
Ok, will answer your questions now…..

[kgreenbank]

The process you describe is illusion coming back and then seen through. So, don't jump to conclusion until you have given it time. Be specific, what can't you seem to do all at once? What are you trying to see properly?

That's beautiful and clear and such a RELIEF. Thank you thank you thank you.
I want Truth to be fully seen, not glimpses of it. I can taste it Sunil, I can smell it and catch it out of the corner of my eye. I want it to reveal itself fully. But I now give this all the time it needs.

Is there a body?

There is the appearance of a body

What makes the bed, my bed, a laptop my laptop, eyes my eyes?

A thought labelling appearances in experience perceived by senses

Do that exercise again, write I am doing, my head is hurting etc. and then without the pronouns?

Sitting is happening, typing is going on, words are appearing on the screen, cake is being eaten, seeing is happening, breathing is happening, tea is being drunk. [NB sense of ownership remains]

What thoughts can you generate? Look carefully.

Repeated instructions arise at first "Right, what thoughts can you generate" (illusion of being in control, but actually I didn't decide to think that, it just appeared)
"Ok now I am going to think about the things on the table...." I didn't know what I was going to think then either
And so it goes on... Every thought is labelled with an "I did that" AFTER it appeared.
I can not generate a single thought. Not one. I kinda knew this but it is still pretty amazing to see.

Combination of real things like sensations comprise a you? Then what is this composite you? Real or an idea, a label?

I know it's not real. But it is one hell of a sticky label.

[kvotski]

Very nice, Kate. Let's give it some more time. Go for another walk in the park when you can.

Check particularly when the label is especially sticky. Close your eyes and try to find self. Where is it, what is it? Is it just a thought that it's sticky without shape, form, taste or colour?

Are you still holding a fear that your kids wouldn't be looked after well if the idea of separate self vanished forever?
What is looking after the kids? The idea of self or a body and mind totally dedicated to this task as it is to protect itself, perform life duties?

Isn't vacillating thought the norm for the mind? How many times do you change your mind about what you are going to wear before going out?

do you need to remember you are a woman? Do you need to remember the self is an illusion?

[kgreenbank]

oh SO annoying, I answered your other questions but the post got lost. will do it again because there were some expectations coming up that I want to share and clear