Request for a guide

[Xain]

There only seems to be sound, or hearing. The mind is struggling with this, but when I really examine it, that's all it is.

Good. The 'mind struggling with it' might be a thing called 'cognitive dissonance'. It is caused by attempting to hold two conflicting ideas at once. One the one hand, we believe there is an 'I', a separate self that is doing the hearing - and yet, examining the hearing a separate hearer cannot be located.

It seems like there needs to be a body in order to have sensations.

This is a perfectly acceptable idea / thought. However, at this stage it should be clear that the body isn't 'doing it' as two things are not found in any of the senses - A body isn't being experienced 'doing the senses' - There are just the senses themselves and thoughts add all the details like what is being sensed, and what is doing the sensing.
Does this seem clear to you?

It all just happens without me knowing how it happens. However, I feel like I do make choices in speech and action, although it seems mostly reactive and automatic. At least it seems like I choose where to focus my attention, and wherever I focus, I have more control over how I am acting, if that makes sense.

Well let's have a look at choice and control now.

Choose one of the arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you feel the moment is right, raise the arm you chose into the air.

Try this experiment as many times as you wish to, and each time inquire:
What is choosing the arm? What is making the decision?
Also . . .
What is controlling the arm? What is making the muscles contract?

So in other words, if 'I choose' and 'I control', what is 'I' here? What is the 'I' that is doing it?
Something that can be found? Or just an idea? (Or something else if you wish).

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

There are just the senses themselves and thoughts add all the details like what is being sensed, and what is doing the sensing.
Does this seem clear to you?

Yes. Perfectly clear.

Choose one of the arms - It doesn't matter which.
When you feel the moment is right, raise the arm you chose into the air.

Try this experiment as many times as you wish to, and each time inquire:
What is choosing the arm? What is making the decision?
Also . . .
What is controlling the arm? What is making the muscles contract?

So in other words, if 'I choose' and 'I control', what is 'I' here? What is the 'I' that is doing it?
Something that can be found? Or just an idea? (Or something else if you wish).

I want to say that I am choosing and controlling which arm, but I can't say that's what I actually experience. The mind at times seems to influence which arm goes up by thinking about it. At other times an arm goes up randomly. I cannot find a doer behind the choice and action. It just happens. Since I don't know how the choice is made or how to contract the muscles, it can't be me doing it.

There is still a lot of cognitive dissonance, as you mentioned previously. It feels wrong to say that I have no choice in what I do, say or think. Is there no free will? Is everything predetermined? Sorry, I'm just feeling confused. It's like this idea of "I" is struggling to hold on, grasping at anything to keep from being found out for what it really is.

[Xain]

I am a guide - It is you who must join the dots :-)

I want to say that I am choosing and controlling which arm, but I can't say that's what I actually experience.

When you say 'I' am choosing, what exactly is this 'I' that you are referring to?
Try the experiment again a few more times. Tell me what this 'I' is, that you find doing the choosing?

The mind at times seems to influence which arm goes up by thinking about it.

Specifically, what is 'the mind' - How is it influencing things? Is that what you are finding?
We will go into 'thinking' in a future examination.

At other times an arm goes up randomly.

Ok - Are you meaning that at certain times there is thought involved, and at other times there is not?
If so, do the thoughts actually 'do anything'? Or are they just 'there'?

It feels wrong to say that I have no choice in what I do, say or think.

What is this 'I' you are referring to? Exactly what is this 'I' that you believe makes choices?
Describe it.

Sorry, I'm just feeling confused.

Don't worry - It is perfectly fine - You are doing very well.
Just keep things simple - Tell me what is clear for you.

To summarise, you are trying to find out exactly what this 'I' is, that makes choices and controls things.
What are you finding?

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

When you say 'I' am choosing, what exactly is this 'I' that you are referring to?

The "I" is only a thought being attributed to another thought about making a choice.

Specifically, what is 'the mind' - How is it influencing things? Is that what you are finding?

The mind is only whatever thoughts are coming up in the moment. Sometimes the thought comes up before one arm moves, such as, "Ok, I will move the left arm", and then that action follows. A few times the opposite happens, or both arms go up, or there are no thoughts at all about which arm to move. It does not seem like I have any real say into what happens.

If so, do the thoughts actually 'do anything'? Or are they just 'there'?

I guess that was answered above, but no they don't actually do anything. They are just there.

What is this 'I' you are referring to? Exactly what is this 'I' that you believe makes choices?

"I" refers to a habitual way of speaking and a sense of identity with the behavior and personality of this body. But I can't locate it anywhere, so it is only a thought, or concept.

[Xain]

Good. Let us move to thoughts as I previously mentioned.

Again, try this example.

Think any thought. Or as an alternative, you could imagine something.

Now, inquire:
What created that thought?
Does the thought have an owner?
Does the thought (or imagined object) appear in a specific location?

Is there a controller of thought to be found? What would that be?
Is there any control of thoughts at all? And if so, by what?
If thoughts could be controlled, surely you could choose to have pleasant thoughts all the time?

To sum up, what is the 'I' in 'I think'? Can an actual thinker be located in the process of thinking?
What is the owner of 'My thoughts'?
What is the controller in 'I chose to think that'?

What can be found?

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

What created that thought?

The thought was triggered by the prompt you gave me, but I don't know what created it.

Does the thought have an owner?

No, because there is no one here to own it.

Does the thought (or imagined object) appear in a specific location?

It feels like it appears behind the eyes when I imagine it (I thought of a green apple), and in between the ears when I think of the name.

Is there a controller of thought to be found? What would that be?

I don't know... I can't find one anywhere. I would say "awareness", but that is only a concept.

Is there any control of thoughts at all? And if so, by what?

There does seem to be control in the sense that a mantra could be repeated throughout the day which pushes aside other thoughts. There is a focus at times. As to what controls this process, I have no idea.

If thoughts could be controlled, surely you could choose to have pleasant thoughts all the time?

If only it were that easy. Anytime I've attempted to focus on positive thinking, negative thoughts still trickle in. So, I obviously have no control over what thoughts come up.

To sum up, what is the 'I' in 'I think'? Can an actual thinker be located in the process of thinking?

The "I" is only another thought. No actual thinker can be located.

What is the owner of 'My thoughts'?

There is no owner.

What is the controller in 'I chose to think that'?

There is no controller.

What can be found?

Nothing and no one. There is only the experience of thoughts appearing.

[Xain]

Ok, let's push deeper and see how we go.

The thought was triggered by the prompt you gave me, but I don't know what created it.

Ok, I understand exactly what you mean . . . but . . .
What is the 'you' that received a prompt?
Is there an 'I' here right now that receives prompts?
Or just an idea / thought of one?

Does the thought (or imagined object) appear in a specific location?
It feels like it appears behind the eyes when I imagine it (I thought of a green apple), and in between the ears when I think of the name.

This is possibly a little more then the guiding goes for. In what you have said, can you confirm that you don't actually witness the thoughts at this location - This would require being able to sense inside of a head.
Is what you are describing a 'vague sense' rather than you perceiving an apple at this exact location?

Is there a controller of thought to be found? What would that be?
I don't know... I can't find one anywhere. I would say "awareness", but that is only a concept.

Very good.

Is there any control of thoughts at all? And if so, by what?
There does seem to be control in the sense that a mantra could be repeated throughout the day which pushes aside other thoughts

I understand you perfectly - But is there a creator or a controller of the mantra?
Could it be that it 'just happens'?
Could it be that everything 'just happens'? Is there an 'I' that makes anything happen? Ever?

The "I" is only another thought. No actual thinker can be located.

Good.
So is there ever a real separate 'I' . . . or only the thought of one?

Is there an 'I' (separate self) that chose to start this conversation with me?
Is there an 'I' that has done any investigation or looking into these things that have been mentioned?

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

Sorry I won't be able to answe using the quote function. I'm not near a computer, so I'm using my iPhone.

There isn't really an "I" that receives prompts. It is only an idea. A question or prompt is given and a response is returned. There isn't actually anyone here who receives a prompt or gives a response.

It is definitely more of a vague sense and an assumption on a location that the thought is appearing in. It is not anywhere definable other than right here.

No one controls or creates the mantra. It does just happen. Sometimes it will pop up and repeat, other times other thoughts intrude. It doesn't have anything to do with an "I" controlling it.

There never is a separate "I" who does anything. Any reasoning that the mind comes up with to support the "I" thought holds no real weight since it is based on a false assumption.

There were choices made to start this conversation and investigation, but they were not done by a separate self. They happened, like a chain reaction. Wow... That hit me like a bag of bricks. Or the little illusory me I should say. It's like everything makes sense as to how everything is as it is. There's no one controlling anything. It all just is.

[Xain]

It is definitely more of a vague sense and an assumption on a location that the thought is appearing in. It is not anywhere definable other than right here.

Cool - Yes exactly - 'Right here' is spot on.
This is really for deeper enquiry. We generally assume thoughts and imaginations with the head area.
I asked this as if an exact location could be found, we could estimate what the owner was.

There never is a separate "I" who does anything. Any reasoning that the mind comes up with to support the "I" thought holds no real weight since it is based on a false assumption.

Yes. It really is as simple as that.
I hope you can see now how you can use this to examine other things. To check the difference between an assumed answer from the mind / thought and what can really be found.
We can say that the thoughts and ideas come from conditioning. We are conditioned to think and believe certain things without question. It's only when we deeply examine them we see that they 'hold no weight'.
Indeed to say 'I have conditioning' is seen to be an idea also - But I hope you understand my meaning. We can still refer to things from the normal perspective and don't need to change language.

That hit me like a bag of bricks.

I thought it might. The things I ask you can really take on board now you have examined many things.

There were choices made to start this conversation and investigation, but they were not done by a separate self.

There could be more investigation for you here. Sure, we can say that 'choices were made' as a general description of past events. But . . . is there anything capable of choice? Could it be that the whole 'choice / freewill' argument is all based on thoughts / ideas (and as such, is essentially an 'illusion')?
'Chain reaction' is a good way of describing it. It may be for your further investigation to examine the relationship between time and thought. Providing it is clear that there is no separate self or 'I' here capable of choosing, and never was . . . and never will be . . . we are good to go. Not that we have a choice anyway! (snigger!)

It's like everything makes sense as to how everything is as it is. There's no one controlling anything. It all just is.

Yes. Exactly. In one description I remember someone saying 'we are simply going along for the ride' - Which is a nice idea about 'no choice and control'.

Do you have any questions at this point or any areas that are not clear?
Feel free to ask. Mention anything that comes up.

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

Sure, we can say that 'choices were made' as a general description of past events. But . . . is there anything capable of choice? Could it be that the whole 'choice / freewill' argument is all based on thoughts / ideas (and as such, is essentially an 'illusion')?

Choice would imply that there is a chooser, which does not exist. Choice and freewill are only ideas. Still is kinda weird to say, since there is quite a bit of leftover baggage from Christian beliefs. But it is clear that there is no separate self to make any choices.

Do you have any questions at this point or any areas that are not clear?

I don´t want to sound like I am backtracking here, but, as much as it makes so much sense that there is no I, no one running the show, I´m not sure I have internalized it. I keep having moments of insight and really feeling like 'Yes, of course that´s how it all is!', but then I am stressing out at work and have completely forgotten the bigger picture and that there is no me to be stressed out. When I think back on the day, I know that stress is just there and it will pass, work will pass, exhaustion will pass, and that there is no one here who owns any of it. But while I´m going through something unpleasant, it feels like I´m back to square one. I know liberation does not mean peace and happiness all the time. It´s just that I didn´t think I´d still be taking things personally at this point.

I guess I still have some remaining expectations, huh?

[Xain]

I guess I still have some remaining expectations, huh?

Perhaps. Let's look at what you said.

I don´t want to sound like I am backtracking here, but, as much as it makes so much sense that there is no I, no one running the show, I´m not sure I have internalized it. I keep having moments of insight and really feeling like 'Yes, of course that´s how it all is!', but then I am stressing out at work and have completely forgotten the bigger picture and that there is no me to be stressed out.

There is still the belief here that there is a separate self / person acting and that has the slightest bit of control or choice. Is there?
Describe that one.

There is the belief that 'things could be different'.
Could they?
What / who is going to alter it?

When I think back on the day, I know that stress is just there and it will pass, work will pass, exhaustion will pass, and that there is no one here who owns any of it. But while I´m going through something unpleasant, it feels like I´m back to square one.

Is there a real separate self with problems?
Is there a real separate self that can solve them?

I know liberation does not mean peace and happiness all the time. It´s just that I didn´t think I´d still be taking things personally at this point.

What is this word 'personally'?
I fully understand your meaning here and how things appear. But who or what has ever taken anything personally?
Personal to who or what?

As a pointer, is anything you describe here anything more than the automatic operation of thoughts and ideas - Perhaps continuing due to some conditioning present.
Where is the real separate person in any of this?

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

There is still the belief here that there is a separate self / person acting and that has the slightest bit of control or choice. Is there?
Describe that one.

No there isn´t. There are thoughts saying that I should be able to keep irritation, anger, frustration in check and that I shouldn´t be getting upset at little things. There isn´t anyone, however, to keep any emotion in check and there is no one to be upset. The emotions are there, but there is resistance to them.

There is the belief that 'things could be different'.
Could they?
What / who is going to alter it?

There is only what is right now, which can´t be different from what already is. No one is going to alter it. Things change, but not because someone made them change. They unfold and change without anyone´s interference.

Is there a real separate self with problems?
Is there a real separate self that can solve them?

If there are problems, there isn´t a separate self that owns them or solves them. Something is only a problem by the mind thinking that it is a problem and that 'I' have to do something about it.

What is this word 'personally'?
I fully understand your meaning here and how things appear. But who or what has ever taken anything personally?
Personal to who or what?

Personally implies that there is an individual, separate from everyone else. No one can, or has ever, taken anything personally. That would mean that there would have to be a me somewhere to feel that way. Since a me cannot be found anywhere, it is only a thought.

As a pointer, is anything you describe here anything more than the automatic operation of thoughts and ideas - Perhaps continuing due to some conditioning present.
Where is the real separate person in any of this?

There isn´t one. Only habitual thinking that has been repeated for years and years.

[Xain]

Thank you AmberMarie - You replies are wonderfully clear and lucid.

Realising 'no separate self' does not change thought patterns which may still occur to conditioning.
It may be that these patterns were expected to disappear immediately.
With this realisation, it is likely that they will slowly diminish in time - Each time a thought occurs with an 'I' in it, the thought will be examined for truth . . . just 'happening' like everything else.

Feel free if you wish to ask any more questions.
There are a further six questions I can ask if and when you are sure that you have fully realised 'no separate self' and are ready for them. The questions themselves might highlight other areas we can look at.

Xain ♥

[ambermarie24]

Yes, that makes sense that thought patterns will slowly diminish. I guess it's a part of living in an era of instant gratification that there is a desire for an overnight release from suffering. I am noticing more and more when "I" thoughts appear and I realize that the root of the thought, "I", is only a thought with no true existence. There has been quite a bit of sadness in discovering that there is no "me" here, never has been, and never will be. Yet at the same time, there is some relief that there is no one responsible for this life I once thought was mine. There is also still fear of future pain and hardship, but I know there is no predicting or controlling whatever comes.

Hmmm, I'm not sure what to ask. I feel that whatever questions come up need only to be examined by looking for a separate self and seeing that there is none. Some of this still feels intellectual rather than experiential, but I truly cannot find an "I" other than the thought of it. So I think I may be ready for the further questions.

[Xain]

There has been quite a bit of sadness in discovering that there is no "me" here, never has been, and never will be.

Why? Do you have any idea why there is a sadness feeling?

Some of this still feels intellectual rather than experiential, but I truly cannot find an "I" other than the thought of it.

What was expected? Was something special meant to happen?
What exactly do you mean by 'experiential'?

Xain ♥