May I be guided by Vivien?

[Ivy]

I have read many threads and prefer the way how Vivien guides.
I wonder if I can be guided by Vivien?
Thank you in advance.
Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

I am happy to assist in exploring the illusion of the separate self, though I can only point the way. You have to see it for yourself. That is why we are described as guides, not teachers.

We will simply have a conversation, the aim of which will be for you to make the realisation that there is no separate self. That will be our focus. I will tend to ask various questions and set you some exercises, but nobody will be judging you. You can't get this wrong.

This process is a guided inquiry where specific areas can be examined. I am not a teacher. This is YOUR inquiry. I will not be giving you new ideas and beliefs; only assisting you in examining and questioning the ones that you already have.

Before we start, let’s get through the formalities first:
If you haven't already seen it, there is introductory info here, the disclaimer and a short video too.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

A few ground rules:
1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer only from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation.
Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and
essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

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If you are happy to agree to the above and have me your guide, we can start the process.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?
How will Life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?

Please answer these questions in great detail. No expectation is too small to ignore.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,
Thank you for being my guide. English is not my first language. If you don't understand what I say, please let me know, and I will explain it more clearly.

What are your expectations for seeing through the illusion of the separate self?

I won't be suffered because of trying to meet the society's anticipation. EX: Be a mother, be rich, be successful with the work, etc. I can be content now and here without keeping trying to chase after something.
And I have been afraid of people a lot since 10 years ago. It makes me suffer a lot and have a hard life. If I can see through the illusion of the separate self, then there may be " no others " for me to be afraid of. Life can be easier.

How will Life change?

Life will happen itself. I don't need to do anything according to my limited mind which always judge and ruin everything.

How will you change?

Once I know "the separated I" is an illusion, I won't worry about how hard I need to make myself and loved ones alive, or some disasters will happen. We are all one entity. No need to defend myself and no need to be jealous others.

What will be different?

The way I perceive the world will be different.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

Thank you for being my guide. English is not my first language. If you don't understand what I say, please let me know, and I will explain it more clearly.

You’re welcome. I’m not a native speaker either :)

Thank you for your honesty about the expectations. This is important, because every expectation is in a way of seeing what is here, right now. Every expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But seeing what IS cannot be ‘found’ in the future.

I go through all the expectations one-by-one. While you read them, please pay attention to what arises 'in the body'. Is there any resistance to any of it?

I won't be suffered because of trying to meet the society's anticipation.

This is a very tricky one. :)

You already don’t suffer, because there is no you (as a separate self) to suffer in the first place. Thoughts about suffering may appear, but they don’t belong to anything. It just SEEMS as if there were a separate self (you) that could suffer.

Here is an important point to mention. Just because the separate self has been seen through, it doesn’t mean automatically that self-referencing thought - including thoughts about suffering -, will stop.
Self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as ‘contents’ of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.

So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic. Actually, it’s just a first step.

EX: Be a mother, be rich, be successful with the work, etc. I can be content now and here without keeping trying to chase after something.

You are ALREADY not a mother, mother is just a thought label.
You can NEVER be successful with work or anything.
You can NEVER be content now and here… because the there is no separate individual in the first place that could be content.
Thoughts about contentment may arise, but they are not owned by anything.

If I can see through the illusion of the separate self, then there may be " no others " for me to be afraid of.

You cannot see through the separate self. Seeing the separate self for what it is can happen, but it’s not done by you or anything.

Life can be easier.

Life will never be easier. Life has no attributes. Life just IS. ALREADY.
‘Easy’ or ‘not easy’ is just a thought interpretation…

Life or seeming outer circumstances won’t change with seeing through the separate individual. Life is always is as it is. Only the thought interpretation about life could change. So everything will be the same, although things might look different.

Life will happen itself. I don't need to do anything according to my limited mind which always judge and ruin everything.

Life ALREADY happens by itself :)
And you already don’t do anything… seeming actions happen, but it’s not done by you or anything.
There is no you + life

Once I know "the separated I" is an illusion, I won't worry about how hard I need to make myself and loved ones alive, or some disasters will happen.

Seeing through the separate self is NOT IMMUNIZATION against feelings. Quite the contrary!
It’s not about eradicating half of the emotions, and keeping only the pleasant ones (peace, happiness, etc.)
Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

Many seekers believe that seeing through the separate individual is a completely different state that they are currently having, with some special qualities (happiness, bliss, constant peace or whatever). However, this is not the case.

Seeing through the illusion that there is a separate entity (self) is not a state. When it is SEEN it, the knowledge becomes factual.

For example, did you ever once believe that Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy was real? If you did at one point, and don't now, does the experience of discovery last? Or is it that the knowledge that there is no such thing as Santa or Tooth Fairy is just another ‘fact’?

Many seekers have the impression that seeing there is no self is a state to ‘abide in’. It's not.

No need to defend myself and no need to be jealous others.

After seeing though the separate self thoughts about jealousy or defense still can occur. But upon investigation, it’s clear that these thoughts don’t belong to anything, therefore thoughts about defense or jealousy can just be.

The way I perceive the world will be different.

The way you perceive the world won’t be different, because there is no separate self that could perceive a separate world. There are only thought interpretations about perception.
The thought interpretation might change.

We are all one entity.

No, we are not. Because there is no we (as separate individuals) to begin with.
But this is well beyond our investigation here. It’s important to know, that seeing through the separate self is just the first step. Really. This investigation just opens up the possibility for further looking. Investigation after seeing through the separate self can stop, but it also can continue…


What I propose to do is to give you lots of questions, in which I will ask you to describe the experience of the senses. It can be called as direct experience, or the actual experience. This refers to the pure, raw actual experience directly, before thoughts try to make sense of it and begin to describe what is happening. Observing with the five senses — seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching/feeling. These questions point to where to look and see what is ‘real’ and what is not.

But before starting, please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

please report what came up reading the comments about the expectations.
Was there any resistance to any of it?

When I read the following paragraph, I sense obvious resistance.

Here is an important point to mention. Just because the separate self has been seen through, it doesn’t mean automatically that self-referencing thought - including thoughts about suffering -, will stop.
Self-referencing thoughts and stories still arise as ‘contents’ of thoughts. However, upon investigation (or sometimes without any investigation) it can be seen that they are only thoughts and nothing more, nothing ‘real’.
Seeing through the separate self is NOT IMMUNIZATION against feelings. Quite the contrary!
It’s not about eradicating half of the emotions, and keeping only the pleasant ones (peace, happiness, etc.)
Seeing through the separate individual is not about not having any ‘bad’ or uncomfortable feelings any more. Rather it’s about encompassing all emotions, accepting WHATEVER is arising in this moment (even the so called negative emotions).

But after I read the following paragraphs, the resistance becomes thinner.

So expecting that seeing through the illusion of the self is the end is quite unrealistic. Actually, it’s just a first step.
But this is well beyond our investigation here. It’s important to know, that seeing through the separate self is just the first step. Really. This investigation just opens up the possibility for further looking. Investigation after seeing through the separate self can stop, but it also can continue…

After I know there are other steps after seeing through the illusion of separate self, I think maybe the state of having no attachment and identification with anything will come. Does this state exist?

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

After I know there are other steps after seeing through the illusion of separate self, I think maybe the state of having no attachment and identification with anything will come. Does this state exist?

States, by definition, are subject to change. Seeing through the separate self is not a state.
It’s about seeing that there is nothing to have a state, or be in a state.

Every single expectation is in the way of seeing what is here, right now. Every single expectation is a ‘hindrance’ in realizing what IS. Expectations are about the future. But seeing through the separate self cannot be found in the future.

An expectation is nothing more than a mental concept. In order to compare it with the current experience, the current experience needs to be conceptualized. As a result, there ‘are’ two mentally fabricated constructs that can be matched up, with a ‘result’ of putting a label of either “this is it” or “this is not” onto the experience.

Expectations are nothing more than ‘contents’ of appearing thoughts, here and now. That’s all; nothing more, nothing serious, nothing ‘real’. Just thoughts.

But after I read the following paragraphs, the resistance becomes thinner.

If any time resistance come up during our conversation, please let me know, so we can have a look on it.

OK then, let’s start it.
The first thing to investigate is to find out what you currently believe yourself to be.
This should be kept very simple and should not be anything requiring in-depth analysis or thought.

The standard view of 'I', 'me' is that of a person - A body with a mind.
The standard view is that 'I' refers to this body. I am this body. Also 'I' have control over this body.
Since 'I' am this body, 'I' see, 'I' hear, 'I' feel etc - I perform all the senses.
This body was born - It will live a number of years - And then it (I) will die.

Feel free to reject what I have suggested if they don't match what you currently believe yourself to be.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you are a person sitting on a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

What does the word 'I' point to?
What makes this body ‘yours’?
What makes this body ‘you’?

From now on, I will write all questions in blue, please always answer ALL of them. These questions are pointers where to LOOK. Of course, you can also reply to any other parts of my posts if you feel need to.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,
Thank you for the clarification. I understand it more clearly now.

If any time resistance come up during our conversation, please let me know, so we can have a look on it.

OK, I will do it.

Currently, would it be fair to say that you are a person sitting on a chair, looking at a computer screen and reading words off it right now?

Yes.

What does the word 'I' point to?

"I" points to something within this body to sense sensation and thoughts.

What makes this body ‘yours’?

I sense everything through this body, and I can do movements through the body, so the sensation and the sense of controlling over this body make this body mine.

What makes this body ‘you’?

My self-image in my mind. Especially when I get along with people, it seems the combination of body and mind is exactly who I am, I don't even have time and space to doubt it.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

"I" points to something within this body to sense sensation and thoughts.

Now we try to find this ‘I’. We are LOOKing for a real ‘I’. Real is something that can be found.

With this investigation we are trying to separate out thought stories from what is ‘real’.
But at first, as an example, let’s try to find Darth Vader from Star Wars.
We’re looking for a real Darth Vader that can be found.
In order to prove that it exists, we have to experience it directly by seeing, hearing, touching/feeling, smelling.

The image projected to the cinema screen is not it.
The poster on the wall about Darth Vader is not it.
The memory in ‘my head’ about Darth Vader is not a proof of its existence.
A thought suggesting that “he may be exist somewhere in the galaxy” is just an idea, but not a proof of it.
A lego figure of Darth Vader is not a real Darth Vader.
A life size wax figure exhibited in a museum is not it.
A twelve-year old boy dressed in a Darth Vader costume is not it.

Now, try to find the ‘I’ that supposedly owns the body. Look everywhere. Search every corner of the body, memories, feelings, thoughts, or any other places. Don’t leave any stones unturned.

Let's take 'seeing' as a first example.

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.

Can it be found what is seeing them?
Do you see a seer?
Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

Right now, these words on the screen are being seen. Examine the actual experience right now.
Can it be found what is seeing them?

The eyes of the body are seeing them.

Do you see a seer?

The body is a seer.

Can be located, found, tracked-down etc the 'thing' that is seeing these words on the screen right now?

The eyes of the body are doing it. Things can't be seen without eyes. If I lose eyes, even I still can smell, touch, hear, taste, but the function of seeing disappears.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

The eyes of the body are seeing them.

…’says’ a thought. But this is NOT the actual experience.
This is a thought ABOUT actual experience.
This is a thought interpretation about the actual experience, but NOT the actual experience itself.

Before we go delve into this, let’s have a deep look onto thoughts first.
Sit at least 30 minutes (preferably more) and investigate these questions:

Where do thoughts come from?
Where are they going?
Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?
Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?
Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

Are you the author of thoughts?
Can you decide never to author another unhappy thought?
Are you able to decide not to author another thought whatsoever?

If you are the author of thoughts, please describe the process of authorship.
Do you use words to make up a thought?
Do you use grammar?
And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished authoring it?

Please go through these questions and answer ALL of them one-by-one. Don’t miss any. Take your time.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

Where do thoughts come from?

Thoughts come from the head.

Where are they going?

They are going nowhere. They just disappear.

Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Yes, but I need to try hard and pay my attention to breath intentionally and intensively.

Can ‘you’ predict what will be the next thought?

No, I can't.

Can 'you' choose not to have painful or negative thoughts?

No, I can't. Even I try hard, there are still some painful and negative thoughts appear by themselves.

Are you the author of thoughts?

No, I am not. I may direct thoughts to particular topics, but it's impossible to make the content of thoughts as exactly what I want.

Can you decide never to author another unhappy thought?

No, I can't. I can't control thoughts.

Are you able to decide not to author another thought whatsoever?

No, they appear by themselves.

If you are the author of thoughts, please describe the process of authorship.

Most of the time, thoughts happen and disappear by themselves. If I try to make up particular thoughts intentionally, I need to mimic the thoughts with instincts, and then make my thoughts follow the instincts.

Do you use words to make up a thought? Do you use grammar?

I am not sure about this one. When I try to mimic the thoughts with instincts, the sentences are formed. I don't intentionally use words and grammar to form them.

And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished authoring it?

The sound of the last word of the unfinished sentence will keep existing like echo until the next thought appears.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

Thoughts come from the head.

Says a thought. This answer is NOT coming from LOOKING; it’s a learned intellectual answer.
With this investigation, we are not interested in what thoughts say. We are interested only in the actual experience. We are not interested in thought stories, just only in what directly can be experienced.

How is it ACTUALLY experienced that ‘thoughts come from the head’?
With which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching/feeling)?

Vivien: Can ‘you’ stop a thought in the middle?

Ivy: Yes, but I need to try hard and pay my attention to breath intentionally and intensively.

Again, this is not coming from looking. This is just an appearing thought, nothing more.

How is this known EXACTLY that a thought can be stopped in the middle?
Just because another thought say so?

If you cannot author and control a thought then how would that be possible that you can stop a thought in the middle?
Is it possible at all?

Please, don’t think about the answer, but really look what actually is.

I may direct thoughts to particular topics

How is ‘directing thoughts to a particular topic’ ACTUALLY experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

If you cannot control thoughts then how could you direct a thought to a topic?
Is this possible at all, or only thoughts say so?

If I try to make up particular thoughts intentionally, I need to mimic the thoughts with instincts, and then make my thoughts follow the instincts.

Instincts? This answer is NOT coming from LOOKING at all. This is just a thought story which has nothing to do with the actual experience.

How ‘instinct’ is ACTUALLY experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

If you cannot control and author thoughts, as you said, then how could you ‘make up a particular thought intentionally’?

How ‘making up a thought intentionally’ is actually experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

Please don’t write thoughts stories, write only about the actual experience.

The sound of the last word of the unfinished sentence will keep existing like echo until the next thought appears.

This is NOT coming from LOOKING, this is a thought story.

Please look very carefully with answering these questions. Don’t buy into what thoughts say, but LOOK at what ACTUALLY is, what REALLY is going on.

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,
The answers of my last post were based on my actual experiences. I had spent about 2 hours on looking the answers. I tried to make the answers short and not wordy, maybe in this process thoughts interfered in and interpreted what my experiences were.

How is it ACTUALLY experienced that ‘thoughts come from the head’?
With which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching/feeling)?

When heavy thoughts arise, I feel movements in my head, sometimes my head becomes tight inside and outside. When light thoughts arise, how I sense is not as obviously as the former.

How is this known EXACTLY that a thought can be stopped in the middle?
Just because another thought say so?

Whenever I pay attention to my breath intentionally and intensively, all thoughts disappear.

If you cannot author and control a thought then how would that be possible that you can stop a thought in the middle?
Is it possible at all?

It makes sense logically, but not my actual experience. I have tried it over and over, thoughts always disappear when I pay attention to my breath intentionally and intensively. I can't author and control a thought in a normal situation, but I did find some methods for me to do something with thoughts during the time of answering the questions one by one. The answers may look inconsistent because I answered them according to what my experiences actually were when I was writing down the answers. I didn't try to answer the questions with thoughts and make them be logical.

How is ‘directing thoughts to a particular topic’ ACTUALLY experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

If you cannot control thoughts then how could you direct a thought to a topic?
Is this possible at all, or only thoughts say so?

I just went to the kitchen to look at the cups. I compared the shapes, colors of cups. I tried to make thoughts be all relative to cups. "How much each cup costs?" "Which one looks more beautiful?" "Which one do I prefer?" ....Most of the thoughts are relative to the topic "cups". Sometimes others kinds of thoughts may appear " What time should I take a shower?" "I am hungry." But the major thoughts are all about "cups". I went to my room and did the same thing with my clothes, the major thoughts are all about my "clothes". So I said I can direct thoughts to the particular topics, "cups" "clothes", etc.

How ‘instinct’ is ACTUALLY experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

If you cannot control and author thoughts, as you said, then how could you ‘make up a particular thought intentionally’?

How ‘making up a thought intentionally’ is actually experienced, with which of the 5 senses?

I sit in my room, perceiving colors of objects in my room. I make my thoughts follow a very easy pattern: "A brown cup." "A yellow bottle." "Green wall." so whenever I focus on an item a time before thoughts appear, I direct my thought to be relative to this item. I focus on the brown cup, and then a thought of "a brown cup" appears. I focus on the yellow bottle, and then a thought of "a yellow bottle" appears. It's why I said I make up thoughts when I do it intentionally. It's exhausting and unproductive, but thoughts appear exactly what I want them to be.

And what does the thought look like when it is half formed, before you have finished authoring it?

The sound of the last word of the unfinished sentence will keep existing like echo until the next thought appears.

This is NOT coming from LOOKING, this is a thought story.

I intend to make up a thought: "What time is it?" and then I start to think about it:"What time..." I stop the sentence at the word "time", the word "time" keep existing until other thoughts appear.

Regards,
Ivy

[Vivien]

Dear Ivy,

The answers of my last post were based on my actual experiences. I had spent about 2 hours on looking the answers. I tried to make the answers short and not wordy, maybe in this process thoughts interfered in and interpreted what my experiences were.

I’m not criticizing you :) I’m just pointing out how quickly thoughts come in, interpreting the experience. (And I’ll continually point this out, that’s the whole point of guiding :)
It’s very good, if you spend 2 hours of looking.

Vivien: How is it ACTUALLY experienced that ‘thoughts come from the head’?
With which of the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, touching/feeling)?

Ivy: When heavy thoughts arise, I feel movements in my head, sometimes my head becomes tight inside and outside. When light thoughts arise, how I sense is not as obviously as the former.

“I feel heavy movements in my head” – this is NOT the actual experience of ‘thoughts come from the head’, this is the actual experience of a SENSATION, and only thoughts INTERPRET this sensation as ‘heavy movements in my head’.

“my head become tight inside an outside” – this is NOT the actual experience of ‘thoughts come from the head’, this is the actual experience of a SENSATION, and only thoughts INTERPRET this sensation as ‘my head become tight inside an outside’.

Do you see the difference?
(Please read my above comment many times, before replying.)

I didn't try to answer the questions with thoughts and make them be logical.

Good :)

Vivien: How is this known EXACTLY that a thought can be stopped in the middle?
Just because another thought say so?

Ivy: Whenever I pay attention to my breath intentionally and intensively, all thoughts disappear.

Yes. But are you doing it?
Are you 100% sure that you are doing it ‘intentionally’?
Or just a thought appear (without you doing it) “let’s pay attention to the breath” and after, the attention automatically goes to the breath (without you doing it)?

Think of a number between 1 and 100. Got it? Now tell…:
How did the decision happen witch number to choose?
Or did a number simply come as a thought?

Please do this many-many times.
Try to go directly to the EXPERIENCE of choosing… and please describe the process of the EXPERIENCE of choosing in detail…

Love, Vivien

[Ivy]

Dear Vivien,

I’m not criticizing you :) I’m just pointing out how quickly thoughts come in, interpreting the experience. (And I’ll continually point this out, that’s the whole point of guiding :)
It’s very good, if you spend 2 hours of looking.

I know it and appreciate the pointing. It makes things clearer. I will be careful not to let thoughts interpret experiences.

“I feel heavy movements in my head” – this is NOT the actual experience of ‘thoughts come from the head’, this is the actual experience of a SENSATION, and only thoughts INTERPRET this sensation as ‘heavy movements in my head’.

“my head become tight inside an outside” – this is NOT the actual experience of ‘thoughts come from the head’, this is the actual experience of a SENSATION, and only thoughts INTERPRET this sensation as ‘my head become tight inside an outside’.

Do you see the difference?
(Please read my above comment many times, before replying.)

Yes, I interpreted “ heavy movements in my head” as the proof of "thoughts come from the head.", but it's just my own interpretation. In the meanwhile, thoughts try to explain and label the sensations. For example, I am cut by a knife. Sensations happen without any definitions. Thoughts come in quickly and label the sensation as "hurt".

Yes. But are you doing it?
Are you 100% sure that you are doing it ‘intentionally’?
Or just a thought appear (without you doing it) “let’s pay attention to the breath” and after, the attention automatically goes to the breath (without you doing it)?

I am not sure about this. I can't see which one is truer.

Think of a number between 1 and 100. Got it? Now tell…:
How did the decision happen witch number to choose?
Or did a number simply come as a thought?

Please do this many-many times.
Try to go directly to the EXPERIENCE of choosing… and please describe the process of the EXPERIENCE of choosing in detail…

I wait for a number to appear. I don't do anything. I just wait without any effort, and a number come as a thought by itself.

Regards,
Ivy