I am ready

[jeanpatrick]

Hello, I'm looking for someone to guide me through this experience.

Thank you,
Jp

[Sarah7]

Hi JP
Im Sarah and Id be happy to guide you.

Why don't you tell me a bit about how you came to be here.

Have you looked around the site? Do you know what we do here?

Looking forward to working with you. Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Thanks :)

How I got to this site specifically was from another website that attempted to guide you through a process of the no-self experience http://www.no-self.com/

I got into new age stuff and spirituality around 15 years ago but it was driven at first to gain something, some ability or power, self control, attention or a search for meaning. That search started on the internet when I was 16 and I began meditating, which eventually led me here.

I've read through some of the threads, you guys point out certain flaws in thought in hopes that we will have an experience of no self.

Thanks for taking the time Sarah, I appreciate it :)

[Sarah7]

Hi JP
There are a few house keeping and standard ground rules I need you to confirm before we start, just in case you haven't already seen them all!

Please agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say that you're still around, and I'll do the same. Sometimes it might just not be possible for one of us to post substantively and of course we'd find a way to work round that.

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point and you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions and you look deeply and respond with 100% honesty.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (the physical evidence of seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, and smelling, prior to the story or explanation about them). Long-winded, analytical and philosophical or stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. Just listen very closely to the answers that arise in you, and answer to the very best of your ability at that time. (Read the article at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/Arti ... ience.html for more help on distinguishing what is direct experience.)

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies etc. for the duration of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. (If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it's ok to continue with that. And it's fine to read threads in this forum and the Gateless Gatecrashers book.)

Please learn to use the quote function, see viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660 for instructions.

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info at http://www.liberationunleashed.com/, together with our disclaimer and a short video.

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

Finally, here's a couple of helpful points:
1) You can press 'subscribe to this topic' in the blue bar at the bottom of this page and receive a notification email every time I post here.

2) The site has a nasty habit of logging you out while you write a reply, which can mean you lose what you have written. One way to avoid this is to write elsewhere, then just paste the message into the 'reply' window when you're ready to send.
OK!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Please confirm that you have seen these, that you agree to the disclaimer and then we'll begin.

I read through the material, and agree to the instructions and disclaimer!

Thanks for this,
Jp

[Sarah7]

Hi JP
Let's get going then!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Hi JP
Let's get going then!
How do you think, feel or experience the 'self', 'I' or ‘me’'?

For instance does it feel like its in the centre or middle of experience, is it solid or thick, does it feel fixed or permanent, is it inside the body or part of the body, does it change, does it feel uniquely different and separate, does it become more or less solid or obvious depending on experience, does it have colour or shape or texture, is it small or large, does this self own the body or the thoughts and feelings it experiences?

I don't actually know how to answer this. It feels like I am my body, and thoughts happen around my head.

Is it made up of thoughts and feelings, sensations, emotions, likes and dislikes, opinions, memories and experiences, perceptions, character and personality, does this self decide, chose, act, do and control? Anything else? Is there a time when the self is not experienced?

I don't control or decide how to feel or think, thoughts just happen and come and go as they please. I don't experience my self sometimes when I'm busy working, watching a good movie or reading a good book for example.

Now have a really good look and tell me where does the 'self' that you conceive yourself to be reside? Is it in the body as a whole, part of the body or somewhere else? Can you pinpoint an exact reference point? Can it be found, at all?

Can anything exist outside the present moment? Can you find anything that does?

The self resides in thoughts I guess. Nothing exists outside the present moment but thinking about something besides what's there.

[Sarah7]

Hi JP
Some lovely answers!
OK. Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….
Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…
What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

I don't control or decide how to feel or think, thoughts just happen and come and go as they please. I don't experience my self sometimes when I'm busy working, watching a good movie or reading a good book for example.

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?

The self resides in thoughts I guess.

OK – have a further look here. No guessing. Look. Is the self just in thought or is there evidence of it being somewhere else?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Hi JP
Some lovely answers!
OK. Id like you to just sit for 5-10 minutes with a paper and pen and I want you to record everything you notice from your ‘I’ list. I want you too look at what experiences come up, what actions you notice, what labels you see and WHERE they are applied, what feelings and emotions come up, and what sensations arise.
Don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - I am lying in bed, I am hearing the rain, I am writing this list, I can feel a sensation of relaxing etc….

I am sitting at my desk writing in this note book. I feel my hand against my head and the other is holding my pen. I pause and itch my nose. I scratch my face and take a deep breath. I yawn and check the time to see how long has passed [just realized this was analysis]. I feel my jeans around my waist and my feet on the floor. I hear the whirring of my laptop and an airplane in the sky above. I feel tense in my shoulders and then relaxing.

Id like you then to repeat the exercise doing exactly the same as you did above, but this time I don’t want you to use the word ‘I’ or ‘me’ when you write the list of what you notice. Again don’t add to what shows itself, don’t analyse, just plain description. Watch the body for any sensations like relaxing or tightening. Just write me a list like - waiting for the next thought, writing, breathing, listening, relaxing sensation etc…

Writing a list. Relaxing the jaw and brow muscles. Feeling the left hand holding down the paper. Feeling the middle finger against the pen. Taking a deep breath. Shoulders are relaxing. Blinking. Moving nose and lips. Swallowing. Waiting for the next sensation. Scratching. Blinking. Looking at the shadow of the hand. Feeling pressure on the side. Breathing.

What do you notice from doing the two looking exercises? Which feels truer?

Wow...! The second one!

If you say ‘my money’ and compare it to ‘money’, ‘my relationship’ compared to ‘relationship’ or ‘my time’ compared to ‘time’ – does if feel different? Does one feel heavier than the other?

Now I want you to look during your day at how labelling happens. See if you can catch ‘I’, ‘I’m’, ‘me’, ‘my’, ‘mine’, ‘I’ve’, etc See if you can see what you apply it too. Is it applied to doing, thinking etc? Is it all the time, most of the time? Is it like a commentary or like an ownership?

I apply it to both thinking and doing, and it is most of the time. What I remember from today's observation went along the lines of:
"I'm hungry. I'm tired. I don't know why xyz. I don't want to xyz. I want xyz. I'm better than that person. Why does that person have and I don't. That person is better than me. I'm a good person. I love you."

I will continue to do this tomorrow.

Is the self just in thought or is there evidence of it being somewhere else?

There are only thoughts about the self. Every time I try to explain it in this response there is a definite grasping to define the self as something that exists on some plane beyond the physical, but that is just a thought as well.

I will conclude that it's just a thought, or thoughts about thoughts.

[Sarah7]

Hey JP
Again excellent noticing!

Wow...! The second one!

Keep looking at how thoughts add the label or ownership element.

I apply it to both thinking and doing, and it is most of the time. What I remember from today's observation went along the lines of: "I'm hungry. I'm tired. I don't know why xyz. I don't want to xyz. I want xyz. I'm better than that person. Why does that person have and I don't. That person is better than me. I'm a good person. I love you." I will continue to do this tomorrow.

Please do and let me know what you notice!
Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

There are only thoughts about the self. Every time I try to explain it in this response there is a definite grasping to define the self as something that exists on some plane beyond the physical, but that is just a thought as well. I will conclude that it's just a thought, or thoughts about thoughts.

Lovely!
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Hey JP
Again excellent noticing!

Thanks :)

Keep looking at how thoughts add the label or ownership element. Please do and let me know what you notice!

Today I noticed more thought patterns around emotions and labels. It's all based on fleeting emotional states and comparison, much of it from past experience. I can't remember any concrete examples right now, but I did a lot of pointing out while this chatter was going on. The formats I saw were "I [emotion] [label]".

Have you ever noticed sometimes that you arrive at a destination and don't really recall actually making the journey? It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It was as if the body was just doing its thing, driving just happened. It is only afterwards that the mind grabs hold of the experience and states 'I was driving the car' or, if questioned whilst driving (a present continuous activity), it would say 'I am driving the car'.
Whether your mind is totally concentrating on each gear shift that 'I' make, each look in the rear view mirror that 'I' makes, each twist of the steering wheel . . . or the entire journey is done automatically, the same result is achieved. Similarly when doing household tasks. Whether mind is involved or not, the task still gets accomplished.

Hugs Sarah xxx

Yes, that's how it is when fully absorbed in something.

[Sarah7]

Hi JP

Today I noticed more thought patterns around emotions and labels. It's all based on fleeting emotional states and comparison, much of it from past experience.

Fabulous!

Yes, that's how it is when fully absorbed in something.

Do you choose to be absorbed? Do you control attention?
Do you decide to like ice cream or not? Do you decide anything? Or do decisions just happen?
Do you bring thoughts? Do you send them away? Stop them? Choose which thought to have before you think it?
Is the content of thought real?
How much of your day is on automatic pilot – where thoughts may come and go but tasks still get done?
In other words is there a controller of movement?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

Do you choose to be absorbed? Do you control attention?

No, I can't say that I do. It makes work a lot easier when it happens and it's something I look forward to, but I don't have an on/off switch.

Do you decide to like ice cream or not?

Nope! I just realize it after the fact and form an opinion about it, but never decided to like it.

Do you decide anything? Or do decisions just happen?

This happens both ways. As I was grabbing some vitamins off a shelf I knock the bottle to the edge and it started tipping over slowly and was about to fall. Without any conscious choice or decision my body reacted by itself and caught it before it hit the cabinet below. I never "decided" to catch it.

In the morning when I'm tired and the alarm is going off, I decide to get up even if I don't feel like it. I'm very confused here because I'm questioning if I decide anything, but it just feels frustrating and confusing for some reason and I'm coming up with a lot of questions.

If we don't actually decide things, then why are people punished for doing things? But then it would stand to reason that the people punishing "bad people" aren't making those decisions either. Baffling. I can't think much further than this and I just feel confused, hahaha.

Do you bring thoughts? Do you send them away? Stop them?

Sometimes when intrusive thoughts come I say a mantra or prayer to stop them or send them away or let them go.

Choose which thought to have before you think it?

Definitely not! Ha that would be fun if I could do that.

Is the content of thought real?

How do you mean? I don't know, thoughts are just thoughts. If I think that's a red apple, and the apple is red, would that be a real thought? But then what is "red" and "apple"? Those are labels we've agreed on using. But is it real? It's as real as it is... I don't understand the question, what is real? What does real mean?

I feel like I could've just said no for a gold star but I do think thoughts are things, but AHA you said the CONTENT of the thought. Ohhhhh. No! The content of the thought is never real or true, but the thought itself is real. It's a real falsehood, or representation of reality in some form.

How much of your day is on automatic pilot – where thoughts may come and go but tasks still get done?
In other words is there a controller of movement?

Thoughts come and go as I move through the day. Oh wow... If "I" decide to go jogging, I'm still not actually in control of that entire process. Do I make a decision to keep jogging with every single step? What about stopping for a drink from the fountain, was that "me"? Why don't I move one more inch before turning off the path to go to fountain? I didn't make any of those choices...

I don't know how to answer that! Something has to be controlling stuff.

It's only grasping that I am experiencing trying to answer this. I really can't say that there is a controller of movement. But it sure feels like I want there to be one.

Hugs Sarah xxx

Hugs! Thanks for your time :) There were multiple times while typing out my answer where I sat befuddled, sometimes laughing hysterically. Much appreciated!

[Sarah7]

Hey JP
Again - so much time taken to look here :). Im going to repeat some stuff till you are clear ok!

This happens both ways. As I was grabbing some vitamins off a shelf I knock the bottle to the edge and it started tipping over slowly and was about to fall. Without any conscious choice or decision my body reacted by itself and caught it before it hit the cabinet below. I never "decided" to catch it.

Fabulous noticing!

In the morning when I'm tired and the alarm is going off, I decide to get up even if I don't feel like it. I'm very confused here because I'm questioning if I decide anything, but it just feels frustrating and confusing for some reason and I'm coming up with a lot of questions.

OK – so this is where you need to concentrate looking. At decisions and doing. Think of a lift with a voice telling what floor you are on. The lift goes up and down but it isn’t driven by the vise – that just accompanies it. A little exercise!
Tap with two or three fingers on the leg. Tap, tap, tap. Then, hold the fingers poised ready to tap. Just waiting in the air for a command to tap.
Looking at the fingers in the air, it’s not quite known when they will tap. In fact, the thought “tap now” can quite happily show up and yet the fingers remain in the air.
See if you can notice the moment when the command is issued and from whence it comes SUCH THAT the fingers simply have to obey. Notice if other commands to tap can be issued which have no affect on the fingers, leaving them remaining in the air.
Is it true that in direct experience there is no command that can be issued to make the fingers tap?
What causes the finger to tap? Anything? See what can be discovered in experience rather than thought.

Sometimes when intrusive thoughts come I say a mantra or prayer to stop them or send them away or let them go.

Are you sure here – if there was control there would be no ‘sometimes’. There is either a controller or there isn’t. If you could make thoughts do what you wanted – would there be a need for you to be here? Wouldn’t you have just turned off the ones you don’t want? Wouldn’t you? Look and see.

How do you mean? I don't know, thoughts are just thoughts. If I think that's a red apple, and the apple is red, would that be a real thought? But then what is "red" and "apple"? Those are labels we've agreed on using. But is it real? It's as real as it is... I don't understand the question, what is real? What does real mean?

OK – yes the word real can be a bit confusing! Ill try to explain better. If you think of a green crisp apple. Are you experiencing the apple or the thought of an apple? If you think of an even from the past – are you experiencing the past or a thought – do you see? Now yes – you can stand in front of a red apple and thoughts will tell you it is there – but do you know for sure?

I feel like I could've just said no for a gold star but I do think thoughts are things, but AHA you said the CONTENT of the thought. Ohhhhh. No! The content of the thought is never real or true, but the thought itself is real. It's a real falsehood, or representation of reality in some form.

YES!

Thoughts come and go as I move through the day. Oh wow... If "I" decide to go jogging, I'm still not actually in control of that entire process. Do I make a decision to keep jogging with every single step? What about stopping for a drink from the fountain, was that "me"? Why don't I move one more inch before turning off the path to go to fountain? I didn't make any of those choices...

WOW!

I don't know how to answer that! Something has to be controlling stuff.

Says who or what? OK maybe thoughts are saying if there is no controller then things would just fall apart…..? Or something like? Well – what if there was no controller – have they fallen apart……………………?

I really can't say that there is a controller of movement. But it sure feels like I want there to be one.

Is that a thought wanting that?

Hugs! Thanks for your time :) There were multiple times while typing out my answer where I sat befuddled, sometimes laughing hysterically. Much appreciated!

Likewise :) – I haven’t finished with you yet – if you want to continue!!!!! LOL.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[jeanpatrick]

I didn't get the opportunity to reply last night. I will reply later today. I definitely want to continue :)