Need help to take the plunge :)

[Freddi]

Hi Chris,

No! "I" is a thought....and the thought of "I", comes and goes. Specifically, it goes when I look into the experience that is happening all around me. It's gone. And if it's gone like that...then it clearly simply doesn't exist in any tangible way. The Truth is that there is no "I" in the Truth....the pure experience. I see this very clearly!

Again, thank you for this clarity.
Yes, the idea of ‘I’ comes and goes, when it comes back, in a given situation, is it always the same?
Look at what happens as you first wake up. Can you catch that moment when ‘I’ sneaks back in, with the first thought?

Amidst the actual experience, there is not separation without thinking thoughts about the separation. Separation happens only in the thoughts about the experience...not the experience itself. The experience itself is merged all the way through, I see...there is no distinction!! In actuality, there is not distinction!

Nice. Thank you :-)

With no one in charge, how do decisions take place? For the next few hours, could you look into any event we would call decision, choice, and let me know what you see, from direct experience, as in real time? Describe two of these as simply and as plainly as you observe them.
This could be over what drink to prepare for yourself, what ingredients to choose to make dinner, or what t-shirt to wear. Anything.
See if there is a chooser in the middle of it, if you see one, describe it.
See what factors come into play when decisions happen.
Do thoughts affect what happen or do they comment?

Thank you!

Fred

[Christopher]

Morning Fred. Looking forward to more discovery today :)

Yes, the idea of ‘I’ comes and goes, when it comes back, in a given situation, is it always the same?

No, it really isn't. It's more like a loose jumble of thoughts that kind of collect around body reactions/emotions associated with whatever is happening. It is no clear, distinct sense of "I"

Look at what happens as you first wake up. Can you catch that moment when ‘I’ sneaks back in, with the first thought?

I will look for this one specifically first thing tomorrow morning. I remember catching the thoughts about "I" pretty quickly when I woke up and started looking within a few moments...but I can't remember what the "I" thoughts had latched onto when I awoke. I'll watch more closely tomorrow a.m. and answer this one tomorrow.

With no one in charge, how do decisions take place?

That is a great question. I have no idea (LOL...a funny statement, in the context of this discussion :). All I know is that they take place....all by themselves. And then the "I" seems to be simply a thought-based set of impressions that kind of latch onto decisions after the fact. The decisions get made first, before the thought of "I" comes in to claim them. And the decisions....well, they just happen!

For the next few hours, could you look into any event we would call decision, choice, and let me know what you see, from direct experience, as in real time? Describe two of these as simply and as plainly as you observe them.
This could be over what drink to prepare for yourself, what ingredients to choose to make dinner, or what t-shirt to wear. Anything.
See if there is a chooser in the middle of it, if you see one, describe it.
See what factors come into play when decisions happen.
Do thoughts affect what happen or do they comment?

I'll do that today and answer back with my examples this evening. Have a great day, Fred!

Chris

[Christopher]

I picked an interesting one....which I can watch all day long: the "decision" of what to say when my coworkers talk to me/ask me questions. This one is very......very...intriguing, I'm finding, when I look at it. My preliminary discovery is that what I say in return.......is said all by itself....the words just come streaming out of my mouth without any direct input on "my" part. My preliminary finding is that I can actually watch what is being said, as if watching a movie. This is so bizarre, that I have a hard time accepting it....I need to watch some more, to be sure. The cool thing is, I have all day to watch...working a 12 hour shift!

Here we go. And I'll find another example too....talk soon :)

[Freddi]

Wow, thanks for that Chris, I look forward to the next one :-)

[Christopher]

Ok, I've seen enough with respect to the assignment. I've been watching myself talk for 5 hours now, on and off....and what I see is a talking machine. The talking occurs automatically, with no conscious/effortful input from thoughts I'd previously thought was "me". Words appear to be spoken in response to the appearance of the circumstances...and then my mouth simply speaks the words. I saw this over and over and over again. The weird thing is....the disengagement of the identification of "I" with the talking....seems to allow the words which just naturally appear and are spoken...to speak more freely, somehow. There is far far less tension in the body...so the whole act simply flows unimpeded. I am awe of this, right now...even as I type........this is just the most amazing thing! It is incomprehensible compared to my previous view/perspective of how I behave in the world...my previous presumed "inner issues" :D

With respect to the second example. Again, a decision was made with absolutely no input from "me"...without a single "me" associated thought or effort whatsoever. I kind of set the stage with becoming aware of the approaching decision of whether or not to eat a Zone bar (protein energy bar) or to go ahead and eat my sandwich packed for lunch. (I work in an emergency department and we just eat right at the work station where we do our charting). I waited a bit and then marveled as my hand reach down into the bag, all by itself, and grab the sandwich from my backpack. I just watched it happen...again, mechanically and by itself. The awareness of it was detached utterly and completely, from my perspective....it was just looking/watching as my hand/body/brain...whatever...the whole of this organism went through a fluid/instantaneous process to reach down and grab what it wanted.

Fred....this is earth shattering to me....in the best possible way. I know....the way things are. I know the truth! I know there's deeper exploration of the state of being aware of the way things are...but I know what the Truth is. But, I don't want to leave anything undone here. I want to be sure. And thus, will trust your guidance further. Lead on, Maestro!! :D

[Freddi]

Thanks Chris,

My preliminary finding is that I can actually watch what is being said, as if watching a movie.

Is there an ‘I’ that watches, or is there simply watching?

Fred

[Christopher]

Is there an ‘I’ that watches, or is there simply watching?

There is no "I" watching, no....at least, not in terms of the previous sense of "self" that was an identifying thought. No....there is awareness watching...and it does not seem to have a location that can call itself "I", rightfully. It is just kind of suspended amidst everything that is happening within its "field of view" so to speak. It seems everywhere at once amidst what it is aware of

[Freddi]

Hello Chris,

there is awareness watching...and it does not seem to have a location that can call itself "I", rightfully. It is just kind of suspended amidst everything that is happening within its "field of view" so to speak

Can you describe that ‘awareness’, in actual, direct experience? Does it have a shape, a size, a colour?
Are ‘you’ awareness?
Is it separate from whatever it is aware of, whatever it is observing?
Remember the ‘observing the tree’ exercise, can you draw a line to separate what is observed and this ‘awareness that is watching’?

Thanks!

Fred

[Christopher]

Morning again Freddi :)

I'll get to your questions today...but first wanted to respond to yesterday's question...

Look at what happens as you first wake up. Can you catch that moment when ‘I’ sneaks back in, with the first thought?

I did catch it after a few seconds to a minute this morning when I awoke. I woke up twice...once very early and then once afterwards upon awakening to go about my day.

The first time there were identifying thoughts about a cold I've been dealing within for the last several days...."me" thoughts regarding how "I" felt this morning and how it would impact "my" work toady given the long shift ahead of me. I caught it and watched the feeling of contraction associated with the "me" thoughts that seemed to matt down in the body. Next, upon the second awakening, I caught the "me" thoughts that reflected upon looking for a response here in the forum...."me" thoughts that identified and sought reinforcement via the back and forth response to posts. Upon looking closely at this....again, the "me" thoughts simply are thoughts which kind of attach to, in this instance, the action of the back-and-forth exchange we are having. There is no real "me" in the back-and-forth exchange....I've already seen that....it happens all by itself :) And the "me" identifying thoughts which attach and claim the back-and-forth exchange action....they happen all by themselves too, I've seen when I look closely.

Ok...now to your questions regarding the "awareness" that is doing the looking.

Can you describe that ‘awareness’, in actual, direct experience? Does it have a shape, a size, a colour?

Describing the awareness is difficult...where words really become inadequate because, socially, its not something that people habitually talk about....not something that consensually labeled and discussed as anything real or worthy of discussion. "Presence" is another relatively good describing word...but really just another word-label for "awareness". The problem in describing it is in the answer to your second questions....

Does it have a shape, a size, a colour?

No, it doesn't! It has no describable qualities that can be "latched onto" with word-labels. It is just something that is perennially there and there everywhere at the same time.

Are ‘you’ awareness?

No, not even a little bit. Yes, there are "me" identifying thoughts that try to attach themselves and claim that awareness but looking with that actual awareness watches those thoughts and they are seen through and are really no different than "me" thoughts that try to attach to anything that happens. They have no substance in and of themselves.

Is it separate from whatever it is aware of, whatever it is observing?
Remember the ‘observing the tree’ exercise, can you draw a line to separate what is observed and this ‘awareness that is watching’?

No, there is no separation. This has been seen again and again over the last couple of days. Awareness is merged inextricably with what it is aware of, without question. There is no separation, in the direct experience. The only way to draw a line is to think thoughts about the "observer" the "observation" and the "observed"...thoughts of which each of these word-labels represent something thought of as being separate...and then, one could draw a line somewhere between the "observer" and the "observed"...but the line itself is just another thought. In reality, in the actuality of awareness.....there is no separating line. Only in thoughts is a separating line possible.

Thanks again for helping me press forward....to look, look and look again :)

Chris

[Freddi]

Hi Chris,

It has no describable qualities that can be "latched onto" with word-labels. It is just something that is perennially there and there everywhere at the same time.

With no separation to be found outside of thoughts, does it matter what we call THIS?
In this uninterpreted moment, there is only one thing happening. Whether we call it ‘awareness’, ‘presence’, 'that' or ‘gobbledygook’ does not come close to describing IT, right?

Chris I feel like asking you our summing-up questions. Six questions that we ask here when it is felt that the illusion of the separate self has been seen through, without any doubt. Would you say that it is the case?

This is by no means the end. In fact it is only a beginning. The exploration continues. After this dialogue, you will have the opportunity to do some post-gate investigation with me or someone else. You will also be invited to some groups where you will be able to share your discoveries and realisations.

What do you say?

Fred

[Christopher]

In this uninterpreted moment, there is only one thing happening. Whether we call it ‘awareness’, ‘presence’, 'that' or ‘gobbledygook’ does not come close to describing IT, right?

Without question....yes! Words do not suffice even remotely :)

Chris I feel like asking you our summing-up questions. Six questions that we ask here when it is felt that the illusion of the separate self has been seen through, without any doubt. Would you say that it is the case?

With a resounding "Yes!" I would say that it is the case. There is no doubt, I'm happy to say.

What do you say?

I say "Yes! Yes! Yes!" :D

[Freddi]

OK, Chris, here are six questions.

Take your time with these, contemplate them. As always, scan your direct experience for the answers, what is alive, here and now.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

I look forward to your answers!

Fred

[Christopher]

Ok, here goes

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity of "self", "me" or "I" at all, anywhere in any way, shape or form. There never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a loosely composed collection of identifying thoughts and reflexive body reactions which arise in response to what is experienced. Those thoughts are a conditioned reflex, learned very young, and have developed momentum through repetition over the span of my life. The thoughts themselves imply ownership and control of things that occur in association with this body and circumstances surrounding it when, in fact, the thoughts, the appearance of surrounding circumstances and the body's reaction to those perceived circumstances are happenings which are beyond control...they are happenings that happen by themselves

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels awesome to see this in the direct experience. It is a pure and complete feeling of freedom...and the feeling is not simply a thought...it is a knowing born of the direct experience itself :)

The difference is the recognition of the Truth, again through direct experience of it...that awareness or presence is the only constant reality...and everything is contained within it....everything IS it...and everything else are just happenings which make cameo appearances within it, including the body and its thoughts...which come and go within the field of awareness which has no location, shape or form....it is just there, always present merging the happenings of presumed observer, observation and observed..including observed thoughts. The difference is a unique "quality" of perception that seems to be associated with that realization or recognition of awareness, so difficult to describe...a sense of absolute clarity...of immediacy...and of the substance-less-ness (LOL...a new word! maybe :) of perceived objects. Also that this state of realization is quickly becoming the "default" state...the state that is returned to over and over again as the impulse to LOOK and see reasserts itself. Prior to this realization born of LOOKING, there was only the default state of identifying thoughts which were bound to a vicious cycle of body reactions/contractions associated with fear stimulated by these identifying thoughts all arising on the context of sense of control when, in fact, there is no control, thus giving rise to a feeling of perennial frustration.

All of this has occurred in the last several days...and has been occurring more and more frequently...with the impulse to look directly, even at thoughts of self, to see/experience the truth.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

The last bit that tipped things for me was when you asked the questions....

How do you KNOW you are not seeing clearly right now?
How do you KNOW you are not seeing things for what they really are?
How do you KNOW you are not already and always in touch with reality?

This seemed to stimulate the impulse to truly look at thoughts themselves...to observe them and recognize them as a mental process that happens all by itself without any substance in reality...they came and go effortlessly on their own. I saw that the impression that "I am not seeing clearly" with all other similarly associated thoughts on the matter was just a thought...and had no underlying basis. Then, when that thought was compared to direct seeing/looking...such as those first moments in experiencing the seeing of the tree branch....or seeing and holding the can of cooking spray....or the moment when I was driving up the street to my house....all those moments in which the seeing/looking of the experience was inextricably merged through-and-through...and utterly clear in that seeing...then I knew that the thoughts of the impression that "I do not see clearly...am not seeing things as they really are....am not already and always in touch with reality" are a lie.....are just mechanical thoughts that came and, more importantly, go...revealing reality for what it is....with crystal clarity.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are 'you' responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There is no decision, intention, free will, choice or control. I see no evidence that any such thing exists. Well, there may be intention at the level of awareness itself...and within the driving force behind "All of Life" which is the manifestation of all things possible which can be experienced in awareness. That seems to have a vast intention behind it but "I" have nothing whatsoever to do with it. But even this "seeming" of the "vast intention behind All of Life" is just a speculative thought itself. So, as things stand, there is no intention that can be understood or without resorting to speculative thought, which is automatically diverted from reality or truth. It cannot be known, as far as I know :)

I don't know what makes things happen....I don't see how that can be known. Things happening can be experienced, but the source of things happening can't be known. In the same vein, I don't know even one little bit how it works. I just know that the working of it can be experienced.

The examples are inherent in each and every instance of direct looking which has occurred over the past several days....and there have been many. But take early this morning, when I was answering the first few questions in my long post here. I stopped typing to experience listening to the sound of an ambulance off in the distance. The stopping...the listening....the sound itself to be listened to...the listener.....all were merged in the experience and the whole of the experience just happened, without any control or forethought whatsoever....it all just seamlessly bloomed there right in front of me and direct knowing/experiencing bloomed within it...all by itself. I don't know how or why it happened. I don't even know how or why I was lucky enough to have the impulse to come to this forum in the first place. I remember a series of events preceding....and a series of seemingly auspicious events throughout my life pointing to this inevitable occurrence, which could make a long long post in and of itself (but I won't :)

6) Anything to add?

Nothing to add! Other than my sheer gratitude for you....for "Infinity" which is just a label for the label of "that vast intelligence" for the process that happened which brought me here in the first place. My gratitude.....my joy....my freedom.....all are at hand. And, as you say....I know directly...that this is just the beginning.

Hope I don't get hit by a bus today! LOL

[Freddi]

Thanks for these answers, Chris. I have no further question.
I will now invite other guides to take a look at our exchange, to make sure we've covered all angles. They may or may not have further questions. I'll be in touch shortly!
Fred

[Christopher]

No problem, Fred...and thank you again for your incisive questioning. Any further questions are welcome, because I know they will result in looking and looking deeper. And looking is where this new found joy resides :)